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NFL network has head of refs talk about the tuck rule


skinsngibbs4life

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sorry to keep bringing up last week, but I thought that this was pretty interesting.

Rich Eisen had the head of referees come on today and talk about some of the issues regarding the refs from last week. Of course, Jake Plummers play was at the top of the list.

The guy started to state the official rules out of the "referee manual". After he was done, "By rule", the refs technically made the right call. But after that rich eisen asked what I thought was a very good question.

"At what point in time does a players intention ever come into play?" Eisen then went on to say that Plummer obviously had the intention of pulling the ball back into his body to look for another option. Suprisingly, the head ref agreeded, but said there was nothing they could do.

Does anyone find this ridiculous? That just because a rule is stated as so, the call has to be called as is? I think that at some point in time, the refs have to make their own judgement and not go out and make the wrong call just because it is in the rules.

Does any of you feel that they should re-write the rule for circumstances such as this? because obviously something needs to be done.

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It will have to be re-written this offseason

Joe Gibbs said it best "basically when the QB brings his arm forward he can do whatever he wants for 10 minutes"

If anything it should be intentional grounding, and if I was a coach I would be coaching my QB"s to be "tucking" it anytime he got in trouble

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The problem with leaving it up to the referees judgement is that, there is ALWAYS going to be one side complaining that his judgement was wrong.

In my opinion the tuck rule should have been nullified on that play once you see that Jake Plummer's OTHER HAND in fact knocked the ball out from his throwing hand.

Now personally, I detest the "arm moving forward" rule anyway, I mean I think if the QB is hit and the ball is still IN HIS HAND, and it is jarred loose, it should be a fumble, I don't care what direction his arm was moving.

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Eisen's question gets to the heart of the matter. It makes zero sense to have a rule in which a player is trying not to pass, loses the ball, and it's treated like a pass.

The play likely was called correctly, by rule, in our game, and was definitely called correctly in the infamous Raiders-Pats playoff game. It's still a ****ty rule.

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Eisen's question gets to the heart of the matter. It makes zero sense to have a rule in which a player is trying not to pass, loses the ball, and it's treated like a pass.

The play likely was called correctly, by rule, in our game, and was definitely called correctly in the infamous Raiders-Pats playoff game. It's still a ****ty rule.

Exactly.

Blondie

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ah well. just goes to show that even with extremely questionable calls, we can still keep up with the best of teams. remember the green bay game last year? one extremely bad call, and we lose by like 2 touchdowns. now, one bad call, and we lose by 2. we've come a long way fellas.

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Eisen's question gets to the heart of the matter. It makes zero sense to have a rule in which a player is trying not to pass, loses the ball, and it's treated like a pass.

The play likely was called correctly, by rule, in our game, and was definitely called correctly in the infamous Raiders-Pats playoff game. It's still a ****ty rule.

way to put it. couldn't agree anymore.

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"If it was a "incomplete pass" it should have been a lateral because the ball was thrown backwards......"

See, I agree with H-O-G and Art here. I haven't reviewed the film a million times, but I seem to recall the ball going BEHIND Plummer after he let it go. . . . ?

If this was infact the case, I am enraged at the call. If the ball went forward, it was the correct call, according to the current rules.

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The league even addressed the rule during the offseason after the Pats /Raiders game. Decided to put off any more talks about the rule until later. Didn't want to overreact because of that incident. It's way later now. My problem is that even if it isn't used that often, on the few times it has been, there has been a clear and concise issue with it. That to me says there is a problem that needs fixing. So. Fix it.

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I asked LaCanfora in yesterday's Washington Post chat about this, here is the exchange:

New York, N.Y.: Jason, I haven't been able to find the answer to this question about the tuck rule. Does it matter that the ball landed behind Plummer when he attempted to tuck it? To me it could have been called a lateral pass, thus a fumble.

Jason La Canfora: According to the league - no. It was a classic tuck scenario and ruled as an incomplete pass.

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The tuck rule was properly called unless the ball goes backwards, at which point, it's a lateral.

I don't think this is true. As long as the quarterback's arm was moving forward and he has not yet completed his tuck, it doesn't matter which direction the ball comes out.

This is equivalent to if a defensive lineman knocked the ball out of the quarterback's hand. As long as the quarterback's arm was moving forward with the ball at the time, it doesn't matter if the ball flies backwards.

The forward motion that defines the forward pass is the motion of the arm with the ball. It becomes a forward pass as soon as the ball in his hand starts going forward - it doesn't matter what happens after it leaves his hand.

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I don't think this is true. As long as the quarterback's arm was moving forward and he has not yet completed his tuck, it doesn't matter which direction the ball comes out.

This is equivalent to if a defensive lineman knocked the ball out of the quarterback's hand. As long as the quarterback's arm was moving forward with the ball at the time, it doesn't matter if the ball flies backwards.

The forward motion that defines the forward pass is the motion of the arm with the ball. It becomes a forward pass as soon as the ball in his hand starts going forward - it doesn't matter what happens after it leaves his hand.

I think this is correct . . . which is why it's a stupid rule.

I've never heard an explanation as to why the rule is there in the first place, what it's trying to accomplish. Anyone?

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Obviously after the Raiders were stung by this little piece of the idiocy the league must have reviewed it. They decided to keep it. So this begs the question, who the hell wanted to keep it and what were their arguments supporting this position?

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Obviously after the Raiders were stung by this little piece of the idiocy the league must have reviewed it. They decided to keep it. So this begs the question, who the hell wanted to keep it and what were their arguments supporting this position?

http://www.nfl.com/ce/feature/0,3783,5151697,00.html

'Tuck' rule tabled until May

By Vic Carucci

NFL Insider

ORLANDO, Fla. (March 19, 2002) - The "tuck rule" drew plenty of conversation at the NFL meetings.

In the end, however, there was no clear sense of what to do about it.

So instead of making a change, owners decided to table discussion about the controversial topic until their next meetings in May.

"You can't approach this thing in a knee-jerk fashion because of the effect it has on the game," said Tennessee Titans coach Jeff Fisher, co-chairman of the league's competition committee. "This has a big, big effect on the game."

The long-standing rule had not been discussed for years -- that is, until the New England Patriots' overtime victory against the Oakland Raiders in the divisional playoffs. Late in regulation, Patriots quarterback Tom Brady initially was ruled to have fumbled while being hit from behind. However, after a review by instant replay, Brady was ruled to have thrown an incomplete pass because his arm was going forward and he had not tucked the ball completely into his body.

The Patriots went onto to tie the game, force the extra period, and would proceed to win the Super Bowl.

For the past two days, club executives and coaches debated the issue of when the motion of the quarterback's arm still indicates that he intends to throw the ball, and at what point he was trying to tuck the ball away to run.

"As we discussed it, it didn't get clearer," said Tampa Bay Buccaneers general manager Rich McKay, the other co-chairman of the competition committee. "It got murkier."

By tabling discussion about changing the rule, all 32 teams will have time to study tapes of a variety of plays involving balls being knocked loose from quarterbacks.

No more votes will be taken during the session, which officially will conclude soon after the NFC coaches' annual media breakfast and other non-legislative activity on March 20.

Owners did approve some minor rules adjustments, including:

Banning artificial noise -- such as blaring music over the public-address system -- in stadiums once the 25-second play clock has started for the visiting team. Previously, the ban began after the team had broken the huddle.

Making chop blocks illegal on kickoff and punt returns as well as on plays from scrimmage.

Not starting the clock on a kickoff until the receiving team touches the ball and begins to advance it. Previously, that rule only applied in the final two minutes. For the rest of the game, the clock started when the ball was kicked.

Running the clock after a sack in the final two minutes of each half. During the rest of the game, the sub-two-minute rule will come into play, where the clock stops for about five seconds, then restarts.

Adjusting the tiebreaker system so it conforms to the league's realignment into eight four-team divisions to accommodate the arrival of the Houston Texans. Now, common opponents is the third tiebreaker within a division after head-to-head games and division record because each of the four teams will have 14 common games in the 16-game schedule.

Grumble.

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For the past two days, club executives and coaches debated the issue of when the motion of the quarterback's arm still indicates that he intends to throw the ball, and at what point he was trying to tuck the ball away to run.
If this is the sole basis for the rule, then I still think it sucks. Shouldn't the throwing motion end before the ball is tucked, and not through the tucking motion?
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The tuck rule was properly called unless the ball goes backwards, at which point, it's a lateral.

Exactly! Click on the signature link.. You'll see even my line isnt straight and shows the ball landed "behind" Jake.

If a ball goes behind you does it matter if its a:

Drop

Pass

Handoff

Bat

toss

Intentional Grounding

lateral..... ;)

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DJ,

If it's a pass and the ball is thrown backwards, it's a lateral. I don't think even the tuck rule overrules that.

This is true, but I don't think you can argue that Jake Plummer was throwing the ball backwards. He was clearly intending to throw the ball forward, then intending to tuck the ball back into his body when he lost control of it.

Nowhere in the rules does it refer to what direction the ball travels when leaving the quarterback's hands. The important question to ask is what direction the ball is moving when the quarterback starts to move his hand:

1. By interpretation, a pass begins when the passer -- with possession of ball -- starts to bring his hand forward.

http://www.nfl.com/fans/rules/protectionofpasser

Someone can try to ask an official, but I believe that if Jake Plummer were facing backwards and did the exact same thing, trying to throw backwards but with the ball coming out forwards, that would be a fumble because when he never would have moved his hand forward to begin a forward pass.

It does not matter which direction the ball comes out; it is the forward motion of the quarterback's arm that begins a forward pass.

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