REPORTS: Redskins not trading Ramsey (merged)

[TheLongshot]

The Skins would have to be nuts not to trade Ramsey to the Jets now! He is a depreciating asset ... If they wait ... he will end up being worthless (to the Skins).

I actually think he will be slightly more valuable in the offseason, because there will be more buyers out there. Also, I really don't think someone will trade much for him during the season, if they need someone to fill in. Who knows if Pennington is going to come back? The Jets don't, but they are going to leave that option open.

Also, unlike Gardner, I don't think there is going to be a lot of pressure to move Ramsey. Otherwise, they aren't going to cut him.

Jason

[CHUBAKAH]

Art said it, check above. And I agree JC has plenty of arm strength to be successful, I just hate seeing overstatement or falsehood in order to make a point.

It would take me all of 30 seconds to find a post about Ramsey that is 100% a falshood from you. Give it a rest...

[Dirk Diggler]

What happened at the end of the Dallas game was a team who had totally OWNED and DOMINATED the opposing team for a decade went into the fourth quarter of a game at home after having seen jack squat from the Redskins offense for three quarters, set up tents, pulled out sleeping bags, and took a nap. That's all it was.

So I would think the Skins are in trouble on Sunday, yes?

[Hooper]

Ramsey is in the same department as Joey Harrington and if you ask me, the incredibly overrated David Carr. What do you think the Lions would get for Harrington?

[AJ_Skins]

Here is my question to all the Ramsey folks. Why do you think Gibbs prefers Brunell?

And don't give me that crap about proving he was "right" last year. Gibbs proved the first time around he would rather win than be "right". He did that when he just had to have Gerald Riggs and talked Bobby Bethard into getting him only to play Byner full time and use Riggs as short yardage because Byner had it and Riggs didn't.

As I've said before...the only way this whole thing makes sense is if Gibbs is hoping Ramsey comes back and plays more to his liking. Because Brunell is a very, very bad alternative.

[Art]

A.J.

You're still bringing out the concept that Gibbs OWES you something here. He doesn't. While I'm sure you'd like to hear Gibbs say what you've been told by many others who DO know yet have chosen to ignore, Gibbs isn't the type to say it. He's NOT ever going to run down one of his guys in public. Ever. You aren't owed it. He's not providing it.

That you think you are therefore allows you to wonder at his motives is just an incredible reach you should be ashamed to continue spouting. Again, this decision for Brunell has a whole lot LESS to do with Mark Brunell than it has to do with Patrick Ramsey. You just refuse to process that fact, so, you don't appear to be a thinking fan. You appear to be a dope who thinks the head coach of his football team OWES HIM an explanation.

[AJ_Skins]

So I would think the Skins are in trouble on Sunday, yes?

I think the Skins are in trouble as long as Brunell is starting. Yes.

[Ghost of]

It would take me all of 30 seconds to find a post about Ramsey that is 100% a falshood from you. Give it a rest...

On an objective analysis or a prediction?

Go ahead and find one rather than thinking you got me beat or scared because you threatened it.

Again, a prediction or anticipation? Those by definition aren't falsehoods if they're wrong.

Something else? You'd have to reach back pretty far and pretty deep to find something as basic as getting someone's arm strength in comparison to another wrong.

[Hooper]

AJ,

Would you rather win with Brunell or lose with Ramsey? Be honest now.

[TheLongshot]

I don't want to believe all of the very bad possible explanations for why Gibbs has done these things. By refusing to explain the decision AT ALL, he opened the door up to it, but I still want to believe the best. I want to believe:

He did explain his decision, that based on the play of both, he has a better feeling for Brunell. Just because you don't LIKE the explination, doesn't mean he didn't explain himself.

I didn't like the way he did it either, and I'm not a believer in Brunell yet, but I'm not going to jump off the cliff over it.

And he'll be worthless because the Skins HAVE MADE HIM WORTHLESS.

You have to admit that Ramsey has had something to do with this as well. If anything, Gibbs not starting him gives teams the possibility of giving Ramsey the benefit of the doubt, because there may be more there than they have seen.

Jason

[Art]

On an objective analysis or a prediction?

Go ahead and find one rather than thinking you got me beat or scared because you threatened it.

Again, a prediction or anticipation? Those by definition aren't falsehoods if they're wrong.

Something else? You'd have to reach back pretty far and pretty deep to find something as basic as getting someone's arm strength in comparison to another wrong.

No, I could simply point to this thread about a page ago where you denied any comparison in arm strength was possible between Ramsey and Campbell to highlight your ability to get it wrong .

[Hokieskins1]

i say trade him... everyone always talks about how good his arm is, maybe on short bullet passes. every pass that i have seen him try to go deep on, it looks like the ball either slips out of his hand or he just cant get enough on his throw. i was a ramsey supporter but now i could care less what happens to him. who knows, if brunnell gets hurt and we put campbell in we could end up with what the steelers have. no one would have thought that big ben would have the year he had. i even said when he came in that the steelers were done.

[AJ_Skins]

Because then what do we do for a backup QB?

What do you mean what do we do for a backup QB? We have the most highly-touted QB to come out of the draft in 20 years, a stone cold lock for the Hall of Fame, in Jason Campbell. What are you smoking?

[Ghost of]

No, I could simply point to this thread about a page ago where you denied any comparison in arm strength was possible between Ramsey and Campbell to highlight your ability to get it wrong .

:laugh:

Art, please. You're the one who has to justify the thing you got wrong. And I didn't deny ANY comparison, I said that saying they had the same arm strength was absurd and wrong. Not because I WANT it to be(as you want to make some kind of odd condition to it, like distance but not velocity) but because it's objective fact.

So, I'm hardly using any falsehood, nor did I make a statement like "oh Jason Campbell's scrambling ability is about as good as Randall Cunningham or Mike Vick's."

My whole intervention on the thread was about you getting something wrong(then later discussing some things with Hoop.) You can't say, "No, no--YOU were wrong AND saying something false to bolster your point." Come on. I had no point to bolster other than to correct something false here.

[Art]

What do you mean what do we do for a backup QB? We have the most highly-touted QB to come out of the draft in 20 years, a stone cold lock for the Hall of Fame, in Jason Campbell. What are you smoking?

That is simply not a statement anyone on this board has ever made. Even those very high on Campbell have never made those statements. Now, maybe, YOU owe me an explanation as to why you're resorting to such nonsense in reply?

Campbell is not a viable backup for many weeks yet. Further, even if he is, there's NO third QB you could possibly rely on to play who knows the system. Unless Hasselbeck is available there's no way the team trades Ramsey barring the deal being so good it can't refuse it.

[AJ_Skins]

A.J.

You're still bringing out the concept that Gibbs OWES you something here. He doesn't. While I'm sure you'd like to hear Gibbs say what you've been told by many others who DO know yet have chosen to ignore, Gibbs isn't the type to say it. He's NOT ever going to run down one of his guys in public. Ever. You aren't owed it. He's not providing it.

That you think you are therefore allows you to wonder at his motives is just an incredible reach you should be ashamed to continue spouting. Again, this decision for Brunell has a whole lot LESS to do with Mark Brunell than it has to do with Patrick Ramsey. You just refuse to process that fact, so, you don't appear to be a thinking fan. You appear to be a dope who thinks the head coach of his football team OWES HIM an explanation.

Uh.. to be honest with you, maybe we do differ here, but I think the coaches and players of any professional sports team do owe the fans explanations. The fans pay their salaries. I understand Gibbs is displeased with Ramsey's performance. That doesn't mean I understand why he benched him. He did it too soon, and he did it in favor of a QB who has played worse than Ramsey ever has. Again it comes back to all these people trying to pretend Brunell just jumped out of a time machine from 1998. After the way he played last year, he should only have sniffed the field if Ramsey threw for 10 yards and 5 INTs a game four weeks in a row, and/or broke both of his legs.

[Art]

:laugh:

Art, please. You're the one who has to justify the thing you got wrong. And I didn't deny ANY comparison, I said that saying they had the same arm strength was absurd and wrong. Not because I WANT it to be(as you want to make some kind of odd condition to it, like distance but not velocity) but because it's objective fact.

So, I'm hardly using any falsehood, nor did I make a statement like "oh Jason Campbell's scrambling ability is about as good as Randall Cunningham or Mike Vick's."

My whole intervention on the thread was about you getting something wrong(then later discussing some things with Hoop.) You can't say, "No, no--YOU were wrong AND saying something false to bolster your point." Come on. I had no point to bolster other than to correct something false here.

I said Campbell has as good an arm as Ramsey. Arm strength is a slightly different measure of distance and velocity. Campbell has greater distance. Ramsey better velocity. Campbell has as good an arm as Ramsey because he can do more things with the ball. He's got better touch as a rookie than Ramsey has NOW. This is not a justification of the clear statement I made. I was responding to your assertion that a statement I did not make can not be made. In fact, it could.

And, the statement I did make can also be made, because it is observable fact. I did not suggest Campbell had scrambling ability like those you mention, so, I'm not sure what you're attempting to do now. Care to explain?

As to your point here, the fact is, what you said was false. Based on observed fact.

[Hooper]

Man, the bye week really sucks. The Skins need to play a game before we all go insane. I don't care who's playing qb as long as we win. AJ, do you feel the same?

[Art]

Uh.. to be honest with you, maybe we do differ here, but I think the coaches and players of any professional sports team do owe the fans explanations. The fans pay their salaries. I understand Gibbs is displeased with Ramsey's performance. That doesn't mean I understand why he benched him. He did it too soon, and he did it in favor of a QB who has played worse than Ramsey ever has. Again it comes back to all these people trying to pretend Brunell just jumped out of a time machine from 1998. After the way he played last year, he should only have sniffed the field if Ramsey threw for 10 yards and 5 INTs a game four weeks in a row, and/or broke both of his legs.

This is not a difference of opinion A.J. This is the highest form of arrogance and you need to get control of yourself. We are FANS of the Washington Redskins. We are not privy to the details of internal decisions. We never will be. We have no expectation we should be.

Your ridiculous assertion that a private business should somehow be held accountable for their decisions as if they were a public agency funded by tax dollars simply because you pay for a ticket is absurd. It's stunning you seem to think the team owes you this. Should we also have their playbook sent to our homes for approval? Or, do you draw the line there? If so, why. I mean, we pay their salaries, why shouldn't we design the plays?

Do you see how dumb this seems?

Gibbs explained what he did to you in a way he was comfortable explaining it. You don't have to like it, but, you can't deny it didn't exist. And anyone who knows Joe Gibbs knows he's not going to come out and call out one of his players in public. That's not how he operates. Ever.

Again, this has NOTHING to do with Brunell. Brunell has NOTHING to do with the choice. This is all about Ramsey. Nothing more. Brunell can suck or be great and it has nothing to do with the decision.

[TheLongshot]

One thing that needs to be said here.

All the moves Gibbs has made during the season, has been about winning now. Not about the future, but now.

Trading Ramsey for draft picks (which is all we would get, since salary cap limitations probably would preclude any players getting traded), will not help us win this season. It would, in fact, hurt us by weakening us in one position, while not strenghening anything.

I know. There are those out there saying, "If he isn't the future, why keep him?", but he's still valuable if something happens to Brunell, either by injury or by quality of play.

We play the games to get into the playoffs and win the super bowl. You only make such moves if it looks like you aren't going to get there. Gibbs doesn't believe that.

Jason

[ksun247]

We aren't going to get a ridiculous offer from the JETS for Ramsey, so let's be patient. We need to have 2 QB's on the roster, because you never know when one will get injured. Just look at the Jets this past Sunday when both QB's got hurt. Ramsey will continue to be a REDSKINS QB, until Gibbs trades him in the OFFSEASON. We're winning now so let's be happy.

BTW, wouldn't be Washington Football unless there was some type of QB controversy. :laugh:

I have my favorite players, but I ROOT FOR THE TEAM!!!! :seahawksu

[318 SKIN]

Too bad I can't tell you Sonny's perspective from having sat with him for hours on Sunday .

But, no one doubts Ramsey's throwing arm. I haven't here. I too trust Sonny more than myself. His insight was quite illuminating on this topic. Ramsey remains a favorite of mine. I've said so. I'm just willing to acknowledge there are clearly flaws in his game that have limited his production to this point. You don't seem willing to do the same.

I'm guess the comment about arm strength was kinda annoying. I am more than willing to acknowledge PR has flaws. What continues to kill me is just the way this entire Skins organization has handled him. We condem PR for making bad decisions, holding the ball to long, not looking off safeties, etc....However, these are the exact same issues that other great QB's where labeled with in there 1st few years in the league. The difference is that the Elways, Aikman's, McNabb's and others that all had great physical skills also had been given a vote of confidence and time to mature in there system. Gibb's half hearted committment to PR was the ulitimate slap in the face. I feel confident that if an employer treated you like Gibb's as treated PR you would be out the door. In the end, it gets maddening when you follow a guy from his rookie year, you pull for him, and this is the treatment he gets. Then we throw arrows when he struggles - all because Gibbs knows best. I hope that PR finally gets a chance to develop and can finally say for certain he either does or doesn't have what it takes.

[AJ_Skins]

Man, the bye week really sucks. The Skins need to play a game before we all go insane. I don't care who's playing qb as long as we win. AJ, do you feel the same?

Yes, but I don't think we're going to win enough games with Brunell to make the playoffs. I think the chances of that happening are extremely slim.

[AJ_Skins]

This is not a difference of opinion A.J. This is the highest form of arrogance and you need to get control of yourself. We are FANS of the Washington Redskins. We are not privy to the details of internal decisions. We never will be. We have no expectation we should be.

Your ridiculous assertion that a private business should somehow be held accountable for their decisions as if they were a public agency funded by tax dollars simply because you pay for a ticket is absurd. It's stunning you seem to think the team owes you this. Should we also have their playbook sent to our homes for approval? Or, do you draw the line there? If so, why. I mean, we pay their salaries, why shouldn't we design the plays?

Do you see how dumb this seems?

Gibbs explained what he did to you in a way he was comfortable explaining it. You don't have to like it, but, you can't deny it didn't exist. And anyone who knows Joe Gibbs knows he's not going to come out and call out one of his players in public. That's not how he operates. Ever.

Again, this has NOTHING to do with Brunell. Brunell has NOTHING to do with the choice. This is all about Ramsey. Nothing more. Brunell can suck or be great and it has nothing to do with the decision.

Well, since you apparently understand what I don't, please explain it to me. If it's "all about Ramsey", then what specifically is it, point by point, and how is it bad enough to justify putting Brunell back on the field?

[Art]

I'm guess the comment about arm strength was kinda annoying. I am more than willing to acknowledge PR has flaws. What continues to kill me is just the way this entire Skins organization has handled him. We condem PR for making bad decisions, holding the ball to long, not looking off safeties, etc....However, these are the exact same issues that other great QB's where labeled with in there 1st few years in the league. The difference is that the Elways, Aikman's, McNabb's and others that all had great physical skills also had been given a vote of confidence and time to mature in there system. Gibb's half hearted committment to PR was the ulitimate slap in the face. I feel confident that if an employer treated you like Gibb's as treated PR you would be out the door. In the end, it gets maddening when you follow a guy from his rookie year, you pull for him, and this is the treatment he gets. Then we throw arrows when he struggles - all because Gibbs knows best. I hope that PR finally gets a chance to develop and can finally say for certain he either does or doesn't have what it takes.

The problem I have with your comments here is guys like Aikman and McNabb and most other QBs who've become very good or great players actually had a take off point in their careers. Elway is a little different in that it was his athletic ability that won games more than his passing ability for many years. From a pure pocket passer standpoint, though, Ramsey has not taken off. He started great. He started off better than most QBs early. But he just hasn't taken his game up a level.

My view on confidence is if Ramsey needs to be given it from the outside then he'll never have it. Confidence is something you have or you don't. Here's where Coach Gibbs came closest to telling us why Ramsey's not playing. When asked to describe Brunell the word he used was "Confident." A backup QB given limited time with the starters who was told he wasn't playing was confident. The starter wasn't.

I think Gibbs would like to see if Ramsey can develop something of a swagger and some confidence on his own because to instill it from the outside is something that is doomed to fail.