REPORTS: Redskins not trading Ramsey (merged)

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I am confident with PR it would be sooner rather than later, and with MB it WAS later rather than sooner.......

Maybe so, but all that says to me is that he, as a HOF coach, sees things that worry him in Ramsey. That doesn't scream "conspiracy" to me in the slightest.

[Epistopheles]

I like Ramsey, but apparently Gibbs does not. I cannot imagine that he would start Ramsey over Campbell if something happened to MB. If we can get something decent (i.e., third and fourth round pick or 1st or second round pick) for a player who is essentially our third-string QB we have to do that.

I am very concerned about any trade though b/c so far Cerrato has looked like the chump owner in a fantasy league (you all know at least one!) when making trades. He'll end up trading Ramsey and a fourth round pick for the Jets 5th rounder!

Come on, everyone. First of all, this whole situation didn't develop because Gibbs doesn't "like" Ramsey. And Gibbs knows, as most of us do, that if Brunell goes down, Campbell is NOT going in any time soon, because he has no business being in at this point. He needs time to learn and is simply not ready. That is the reason why the Skins aren't entertaining any offers for Ramsey, from the Jets or anyone else. We NEED him. Gibbs understands that the backup QB position is very important, and if something happens to your starter, you need someone able to come in and get the job done.

I'd love to see Ramsey succeed, but he'll just have to wait until his next opportunity.

[Art]

As you pick apart my comment, let's review the main topic:

The difference is that the Elways, Aikman's, McNabb's and others that all had great physical skills also had been given a vote of confidence and time to mature in there system. Gibb's half hearted committment to PR was the ulitimate slap in the face.

They had the ultimate support from there organization that allowed them to reach that takeoff point. I seems your right it begans around that 30th game. So your right, PR is just about ready to "takeoff".

And, again, confidence exists or it doesn't. If Patrick Ramsey BELIEVED he should be starting for this team now, he would be. If he had confidence in his ability, he'd be starting. Lacking that, despite efforts by Gibbs to give him confidence by declaration, you can only wait so long for a guy to believe in himself. It shouldn't take others to give you that.

[Art]

OK - I agree that Brunell outperformed PR in the preseason for whatever reason. My biggest problem is that obviously Gibb's felt same way, but instead of having the courage to come clean and make the change before the Chicago game (it would have been hard). He performed the ultimate act of humiliation and pulled PR after 3 series of his 1st promised start, using a minor injury to do his dirty work. I really don't care what you think of PR and his talents, but you can't feel this was an ethical or couragous thing to do. If we have gotten to the point were these things don't really matter and GIbbs can do whatever he wants, ethically or not, then I guess it really isn't a team that I want to support.

regards,

318

You're closer to right here than you've been.

Gibbs did make a mistake by keeping his word to Ramsey and starting him despite the obvious belief Ramsey wasn't the guy. Such is the honesty Gibbs has that he'll do this. I think that's a bit of a flaw in him here as I could not imagine he'd start a guy he so clearly didn't want to be in there simply to give him that last chance.

Certainly the biggest mistake Gibbs made was giving the starting job to a player who had not earned it. I think he learned his lesson on this.

[Destino]

And, again, confidence exists or it doesn't. If Patrick Ramsey BELIEVED he should be starting for this team now, he would be. If he had confidence in his ability, he'd be starting. Lacking that, despite efforts by Gibbs to give him confidence by declaration, you can only wait so long for a guy to believe in himself. It shouldn't take others to give you that.

Sorry Art but this is nonsense. Almost all QB's that go on to have long successful careers start off with teams willing to deal with their mistakes and let them play through all of it. Ramsey was never given anything close to this so the whole "you can only wait so long" thing really doesn't fly. The guy should have been handed the starter role for 3 years win lose or draw....if by then he did nothing move on.

Carson Palmer had 18td and 18 picks last year, was there a question that he'd be the starter this year? No. Was there any hesitation in replacing a vet that had great success the year before naming him the starter? No. The team had a plan and went with it despite set backs because they were looking towards the future.

Peyton Manning threw 28 picks his 1st year. He was allowed to play through it. Byron Leftwich came in for our new found hero and put up 16 picks and 14tds on the year, no doubt he'd start the next year. I could go right down the line because what we all know, and this includes you, is that QBs are horrible their first years. It's expected and you have to deal with it and let it happen because that is the only way they ever develop.

If you look at P-Rams 2003 numbers it's clear they weren't far off, and in fact compare positvely, to those of any developing QB. 14td 9int and a 75.8 rating yet the very next year did he get a chance to grow? No. He was brought in to clean up the mess a hurt and pathetic lame duck QB made after having a coach give away valuable draft picks because he had no faith in the previous starter.

Gibbs may have a plan and I agree 100% that he needs to steer this team as he see's fit. I even think we'll find success down the road because Gibbs is no fool, he'll right this ship sooner then later. But our coaching parade made it urgent to win NOW and caused a situation where P-Ram was personally screwed by this franchise.

[36SKINS56]

Trade him to the Jets...they are due for a superbowl run...thats what happens to every "washed up" player the Redskins send packing. :jetssuck:

[F Landry]

My fantasy is that Brunell will get hurt while being sacked in the Seahawks game. Ramsey will then enter the game ... throw 3 tds to Moss, Patten, and Cooley, respectively ... and then as the new QB of the 3 and 0 Skins go on to lead the team deep into the playoffs, thereby throwing this forum into unrecoverable chaos and ending all rumors of a trade.

Ahmen.

:notworthy

:applause:

Haha!

[NoCalMike]

Why would Ramsey want to go to ANOTHER team that will have him as their backup in due time, unless Chad loses the starting job due to injury.

[AzSkinsFan63]

I doubt we'll trade Ramsey as it leaves us vulnerable this year. Maybe if Timmy was available again we might consider it. But, I doubt the team will make a move like this. It simply is a bad football move for the present. Now, if the Jets offer something crazy good like Abraham or whatever, then, sure. Otherwise, you don't help yourself out much for the future with a fourth or third rounder you'd get for Ramsey right now and you kill yourself in the present.

Yeah I don't think the Skins were that high on Spinner do you?

to bad though..

[318 SKIN]

And, again, confidence exists or it doesn't. If Patrick Ramsey BELIEVED he should be starting for this team now, he would be. If he had confidence in his ability, he'd be starting. Lacking that, despite efforts by Gibbs to give him confidence by declaration, you can only wait so long for a guy to believe in himself. It shouldn't take others to give you that.

Please, Aikman was not captain confidence when he arrived in Dallas - I already mentioned that his mental toughness was being questioned. He was however, being praised for his physical determination even thou he was getting killed because of poor o-line play (sound familar). I was in Dallas from 1984-1992 - I clearly remember how bad it got. The only thing that took the pressure off of Troy was that Jerry had just fired Landry and that took precedent. Just an old coach past his prime?

Remember, just because you post with confidence doesn't mean your right.

[Art]

Destino,

I frankly don't understand the thought that the most important position on the field should be one you turn over to someone, unchallenged, for YEARS, regardless of play. But, even if I did agree there, the problem with Ramsey isn't so much he makes mistakes. It's he often seems to be devolving at times. Or as I wrote immediately after the Panthers game in the preseason, it's not that Ramsey played or plays poorly at times, it's just that he never seems to be making measurable progress. For a guy given the starting role, it is not something we were able to wait on any longer. He had to BE the guy. If we were waiting on development we acquired another guy to handle that.

Ramsey essentially played half the season last year. I think it's a difficult position to take that he wasn't given an opportunity in the offense. Don't you?

[NVskinsfan]

Booma, you had me at Mort....you had me at Mort.

Taht is so right!!! Mort Mort Mort!!!

[Art]

Please, Aikman was not captain confidence when he arrived in Dallas - I already mentioned that his mental toughness was being questioned. He was however, being praised for his physical determination even thou he was getting killed because of poor o-line play (sound familar). I was in Dallas from 1984-1992 - I clearly remember how bad it got. The only thing that took the pressure off of Troy was that Jerry had just fired Landry and that took precedent. Just an old coach past his prime?

Remember, just because you post with confidence doesn't mean your right.

I pointed out Aikman's thoughts on having confidence and how important it is for players to have it and for coaches to monitor it in players. In fact, he always was a supremely confident QB even through the challenge of Walsh. That is a difference between he and Ramsey to this point who seemed to take each challenge as a direct assault on his person.

I would have liked to see Ramsey take those challenges on and display an air of self-confidence that allowed him to take the job by performance. He may still have that in him, especially given this turn of events. Jimmy Johnson was Troy's coach all along in the pros, so I'm not sure where your Landry reference comes in.

I said very much the same thing in 2000 when we brought Jeff George in and Brad Johnson seemed to fall apart. Confidence is something you have. It's something you excude. Circumstance doesn't matter. Now, having confidence doesn't mean you're any good -- see Freddie Mitchell. It just means if you view it as important, it's a trait you need the individual to display on his own.

If Ramsey's confidence was so shaken, as you suggest, then, it's probably a very solid reason as to why he is not starting. You'd know his thinking there better than I would I imagine.

[NVskinsfan]

Get something fo rhim before we get NOTHING for him! we'll see!!!

[NVskinsfan]

Laverneaus must be giving Ramsey props! This is not a good trade for Ramsey either...he would back Bollinger in a new system...and ugh, he is better off taking his chances here for a year then push for the trade hard and start fresh with a better chance to be successful.

They need a live arm, strong arm Pennington isn't it and may not ever be it again! Wheres all the hype now?

[tizzod]

Now if they wanted Ramsey for Abraham, straight up, then we are talkin'.

But, not gonna happen. Gibbs knows how depth at QB is the most important thing on the offense. He wants two 'starters,' as he has put it in the past, and will not be trading Ramsey until after the season.

However, if Ramsey becomes a malcontent w/ this team, he might see the door. We took an awful cap hit to have Coles leave for that very same reason, and we may do the same for Ramsey if it becomes an off-field issue. But in mid-season? I kinda doubt that.

Ramsey won't be a malcontent. He's still a man. He will do the right thing. He ain't going anywhere. Who else do we have?

[318 SKIN]

Destino,

I frankly don't understand the thought that the most important position on the field should be one you turn over to someone, unchallenged, for YEARS, regardless of play. But, even if I did agree there, the problem with Ramsey isn't so much he makes mistakes. It's he often seems to be devolving at times. Or as I wrote immediately after the Panthers game in the preseason, it's not that Ramsey played or plays poorly at times, it's just that he never seems to be making measurable progress. For a guy given the starting role, it is not something we were able to wait on any longer. He had to BE the guy. If we were waiting on development we acquired another guy to handle that.

Ramsey essentially played half the season last year. I think it's a difficult position to take that he wasn't given an opportunity in the offense. Don't you?

Art (old wise one) - Can we really have such a mistake prone, devolving QB in such an important role given that this team is on the way to big things this year. I have always heard - the one thing you want from your backup QB is not make mistakes. Shouldn't we be looking to move PR?

[Art]

Art (old wise one) - Can we really have such a mistake prone, devolving QB in such an important role given that this team is on the way to big things this year. I have always heard - the one thing you want from your backup QB is not make mistakes. Shouldn't we be looking to move PR?

You can game plan around a backup QB coming in by removing aspects of the full game plan to protect him, and the team, from the types of mistakes he might make. Gibbs essentially did this for half a season a year ago after watching Ramsey pepper defenders in two games with the full system in place initially.

Obviously this is not an ideal situation for a long-stretch, but can be effective for a spell. And, perhaps Ramsey will take the opportunity here to find whatever motivation he's lacked to finally allow him to turn the corner when he does get back in and really help the team take off.

I think our greatest shot at a high level of success this year is for Ramsey to play again and take the job and make it his. But, if he simply maintains who he's been for his career, Gibbs can protect him from the mistakes he makes as he did last year in the games he started.

[318 SKIN]

I pointed out Aikman's thoughts on having confidence and how important it is for players to have it and for coaches to monitor it in players. In fact, he always was a supremely confident QB even through the challenge of Walsh. That is a difference between he and Ramsey to this point who seemed to take each challenge as a direct assault on his person.

I would have liked to see Ramsey take those challenges on and display an air of self-confidence that allowed him to take the job by performance. He may still have that in him, especially given this turn of events. Jimmy Johnson was Troy's coach all along in the pros, so I'm not sure where your Landry reference comes in.

I said very much the same thing in 2000 when we brought Jeff George in and Brad Johnson seemed to fall apart. Confidence is something you have. It's something you excude. Circumstance doesn't matter. Now, having confidence doesn't mean you're any good -- see Freddie Mitchell. It just means if you view it as important, it's a trait you need the individual to display on his own.

If Ramsey's confidence was so shaken, as you suggest, then, it's probably a very solid reason as to why he is not starting. You'd know his thinking there better than I would I imagine.

The Landry thing took place 1yr before Troy & that's all that folks really focused on - especially since Dallas was going 1-15?? in Jimmy's 1st year.

Finally, I don't think confidence is the real issue here - what I think PR has lacked from day 1 is a since of commitment from the organization. That has to drive a person crazy (PR included). Please be open minded to think back on all the S%it PR has had to deal with and if you can honestly say he has been given a fair shot with the Skins then we are both just wasting our time.

[fpickering]

illone - I think that there are two major flaws in your argument.

1. You use Brunell's past stats (when he was in his prime) in the comparison and apply them to the current situation.

2. Also you say that Brunell is playing better this year than Ramsey. Unfortunately, all we have to go on is 3 series from Ramsey.

I don't think that either guy has displayed that he is better at this point. It is a pick your poison scenario IMO. With Ramsey you have a guy who seemingly can move the ball with more regularity and generate more yards but also makes more mistakes

With Brunell you have a guy who typically generates less yardage but makes less mistakes.

It is a toss up since we did not get a chance to see more from Ramsey.

I am of the opinion that if we get at least a 2nd rounder + another pick(s) that we have to seriously consider the offer. The poster who made the point that teams who draft 1st round QBs usually make them their backups right off the bat has a good point. Also, I believe that Ramsey's psyche is shattered by the roller coaster he has been on here and he most likely will never again play to his potential in a Redskins uniform.... so in the scenario that Brunell gets hurt we should play the rookie.

We gave up a lot for JC and this might be a good opportunity to recoup some draft picks.

[Destino]

Destino,

I frankly don't understand the thought that the most important position on the field should be one you turn over to someone, unchallenged, for YEARS, regardless of play. But, even if I did agree there, the problem with Ramsey isn't so much he makes mistakes. It's he often seems to be devolving at times. Or as I wrote immediately after the Panthers game in the preseason, it's not that Ramsey played or plays poorly at times, it's just that he never seems to be making measurable progress. For a guy given the starting role, it is not something we were able to wait on any longer. He had to BE the guy. If we were waiting on development we acquired another guy to handle that.

Ramsey essentially played half the season last year. I think it's a difficult position to take that he wasn't given an opportunity in the offense. Don't you?

Well I have to admit that I too have had the feeling that Ramsey has devolved a bit. Just looking at his 2003 int/td ratio and then that of the following years shows some downward movement. Like I said I don't disagree with what Gibbs is doing, but I still think the guy wasn't given a fair shake. He was the starter and had we had coaching stability the team would have been molded around his strengths and weaknesses instead of trying to adapt him to the system of a new coach and toss him into a competition with a hand picked veteran who was as familiar with the system as the returning stater.

I don't claim Ramsey was never given a chance, he was clearly given that much. What I'm saying is that way you raise a rookie and make him a starter is not what this kid has experienced here. He had one year where he was pretty much "the guy" in DC and he played great considering the context of the situation. Every other year he got the treatment of a tried and failed backup or a newly acquired free agent, that being a suspicious eye and a "we'll see" attitude from the coaching staff. He never had the chance to grow in a system that was built for him to advance, unlike every other QB that has found long lasting success early in his NFL life.

[Art]

The Landry thing took place 1yr before Troy & that's all that folks really focused on - especially since Dallas was going 1-15?? in Jimmy's 1st year.

Finally, I don't think confidence is the real issue here - what I think PR has lacked from day 1 is a since of commitment from the organization. That has to drive a person crazy (PR included). Please be open minded to think back on all the S%it PR has had to deal with and if you can honestly say he has been given a fair shot with the Skins then we are both just wasting our time.

I think he has, absolutely, been given a fair shot with the Skins and I believe he'll be given yet ANOTHER, at least. I don't know what Jansen was talking about, but, on the radio after the move was made Jansen said there are things Ramsey was being asked to do that he wasn't doing, and that when he got back in he would. Something to that effect. This wasn't said to bad mouth Patrick. But, it goes to the layers here.

Ramsey wouldn't WILLFULLY not do it. He just wasn't doing it. Whatever "it" was. I do think confidence has something to do with this. As you've indicated, Ramsey's confidence was shaken by all he's had to endure. But, after coming in late as a rookie, he started then started to decline and was removed. He began year two as the clear starter, started well, then began to decline before getting hurt. Year 3 he acknowledged he was beaten out for the job. Despite that, he played half the year with very up and down play.

He was then given the job this year, took all the snaps, had all the opportunity and still wasn't doing something basic enough that even his best friend mentioned it on the radio. I want Ramsey to succeed. I do, ultimately, think his success will be somewhere else where he can be a true gunslinger. Still, I think it's unfortunate we keep looking for reasons to explain how wronged Ramsey was instead of accepting the fact what happened to him was likely brought on by things he had full control over.

And, things he can improve upon to take this thing over if he wants.