A Glimpse Into (The Hoped For) Future of Our Offense

[Darth Tater]

Yusuf06,

NONE of these coordinators would even begin to help our offense. Any improvement in our offensive performance that they get credit for would be an example of the broken glass phenomena. We need better field position and better execution with better execution, Bears lose 35-0 and Dallas loses 34-10. We need the defense or teams to set up some sfos.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Bull ***. Brunell played against scrubs in the preseason, and he's been pathetic in the first two games except for a couple of passes and a run against Dallas.

That wasn't your point or mine.

You asked why Brunell is getting so much time (so far he's played less than two games...both wins) when Ramsey only got one quarter. I told you that Ramsey got more than one quarter...he got every opportunity to salt away the starting job and he did not. You cannot objectively tell me that he was the better QB in the preseason.

As has been stated over and over again, Brunell makes better decisions with the ball for this coaching staff. He takes less risks. That is something Gibbs apparently likes (and obviously something you don't).

[COOLhandsCOOLEY]

Did this thread about the future just revert to a Brunell vs. Ramsey thread? To answer the question to why Brunell gets to keep his job after seven quarters and two touchdowns- IMO it is because Ramsey gave up more turnovers in his 18 minutes of play than Brunell has in two games. I can't believe that people are oblivious to this. When Ramsey plays the opponents Defense seems to score. When Brunell plays the worst that happens is a punt. I'll take the punt over the INT any day of the week.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Did this thread about the future just revert to a Brunell vs. Ramsey thread? To answer the question to why Brunell gets to keep his job after seven quarters and two touchdowns- IMO it is because Ramsey gave up more turnovers in his 18 minutes of play than Brunell has in two games. I can't believe that people are oblivious to this. When Ramsey plays the opponents Defense seems to score. When Brunell plays the worst that happens is a punt. I'll take the punt over the INT any day of the week.

Well said.

[AJ_Skins]

That wasn't your point or mine.

You asked why Brunell is getting so much time (so far he's played less than two games...both wins) when Ramsey only got one quarter. I told you that Ramsey got more than one quarter...he got every opportunity to salt away the starting job and he did not. You cannot objectively tell me that he was the better QB in the preseason.

Youcan't compare the two in the preseason. It was apples and oranges. Brunell played against nobodies.

As has been stated over and over again, Brunell makes better decisions with the ball for this coaching staff. He takes less risks. That is something Gibbs apparently likes (and obviously something you don't).

That's right, because our offense sucks with Brunell.

[AJ_Skins]

Did this thread about the future just revert to a Brunell vs. Ramsey thread? To answer the question to why Brunell gets to keep his job after seven quarters and two touchdowns- IMO it is because Ramsey gave up more turnovers in his 18 minutes of play than Brunell has in two games. I can't believe that people are oblivious to this. When Ramsey plays the opponents Defense seems to score. When Brunell plays the worst that happens is a punt. I'll take the punt over the INT any day of the week.

Again, Bull ****. BRUNELL HAD THREE FUMBLES RETURNED FOR TDS BY THE OPPOSING DEFENSE LAST YEAR.

Tampa Bay.

New York Giants.

Baltimore.

[COOLhandsCOOLEY]

Youcan't compare the two in the preseason. It was apples and oranges. Brunell played against nobodies.

That's right, because our offense sucks with Brunell.

As opposed to the juggernauts we are with Senior Picks alot a.k.a P-Ram

[AJ_Skins]

As opposed to the juggernauts we are with Senior Picks alot a.k.a P-Ram

We don't know, because Gibbs didn't let him play. Gave him no time to "gel" in the regular season. Brunell? Brunell gets as long as he wants, or as long as Gibbs can give him until the fans start coming after him with pitchforks.

[COOLhandsCOOLEY]

Again, Bull ****. BRUNELL HAD THREE FUMBLES RETURNED FOR TDS BY THE OPPOSING DEFENSE LAST YEAR.

Tampa Bay.

New York Giants.

Baltimore.

Where is the bull? Lets have a race to find out the true answer. How many turnovers has Patrick Ramsey caused in his tenure as a redskin. Lets compare it to Brunell in the same number of games. I don't know the answer, but I'd be mighty surpised if Patrick's scale didnt weigh heavier.

[AJ_Skins]

Where is the bull? Lets have a race to find out the true answer. How many turnovers has Patrick Ramsey caused in his tenure as a redskin. Lets compare it to Brunell in the same number of games. I don't know the answer, but I'd be mighty surpised if Patrick's scale didnt weigh heavier.

Already done that...at least for the period since Brunell's been here. Including INTs and lost fumbles, since the start of last year, Brunell has averaged 1.0 turnovers per game, Ramsey has averaged 1.333. So you're trading off a chance of one more turnover every three games for an offense that punts 8 or 9 times per game. Bottom line, end of story. Period.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Already done that...at least for the period since Brunell's been here. Including INTs and lost fumbles, since the start of last year, Brunell has averaged 1.0 turnovers per game, Ramsey has averaged 1.333. So you're trading off a chance of one more turnover every three games for an offense that punts 8 or 9 times per game. Bottom line, end of story. Period.

But where is the proof that we punt less with Ramsey??

If I recall, we've gained some good yardage this year and hit on 3 or 4 passes of over 40 yards already (granted Ramsey had one of those). That's more than we were able to hit on ALL of last year...

Brunell proved in those last 4 minutes of the Cowboy game that he has the ability to get the ball downfield when he wants to. I trust his judgement much more than I trust Ramsey's at this point.

Ramsey was unable to connect on any long passes all through the preseason and never attempted one in his one quarter of play vs. Chicago (his 41 yard pass was a crossing pattern over the middle that Moss turned into a long gain).

Therefore, the one big "knock" on Brunell (and "plus" for Ramsey) has been refuted to some extent since Brunell has gotten big plays downfield more than Ramsey.

[COOLhandsCOOLEY]

Already done that...at least for the period since Brunell's been here. Including INTs and lost fumbles, since the start of last year, Brunell has averaged 1.0 turnovers per game, Ramsey has averaged 1.333. So you're trading off a chance of one more turnover every three games for an offense that punts 8 or 9 times per game. Bottom line, end of story. Period.

this is craziness. we are 2-0. Our QB just threw two passes to beat Dallas in their house for the first time in like a million years yet, we complain. All those Ramsey supporters who seem to think we could be doing better with him at the healm, tell me this. How can we do better than winning all the games we've played thus far?

BEAT SEATTLE!!!

[TD_washingtonredskins]

this is craziness. we are 2-0. Our QB just threw two passes to beat Dallas in their house for the first time in like a million years yet, we complain. All those Ramsey supporters who seem to think we could be doing better with him at the healm, tell me this. How can we do better than winning all the games we've played thus far?

BEAT SEATTLE!!!

Good post.

The thing is, they said we couldn't win without Ramsey...now that we have, they need to drill deeper to say that we'd be winning easier with Ramsey. At some point, their rhetoric just becomes noise.

Newsflash: If Ramsey was the best option at QB, he'd be playing. There is no conspiracy.

Let's keep supporting our starting QB...Mark Brunell.

[AJ_Skins]

this is craziness. we are 2-0. Our QB just threw two passes to beat Dallas in their house for the first time in like a million years yet, we complain. All those Ramsey supporters who seem to think we could be doing better with him at the healm, tell me this. How can we do better than winning all the games we've played thus far?

BEAT SEATTLE!!!

Just keep watching the offense and see how it does. That's what I'm going to do. My feelings about the situation are based on two things: Gibbs's refussl to pull Brunell last year before he had already lost us the season, and Gibbs's decision to yank Ramsey after one quarter against the Bears and put Brunell back in. As high as my opinion of Coach Gibbs is, I think his attachment to Brunell is an achilles heel that sank this team last year and threatens to do so again this year. The way the Cowboys game ended does not negate Brunell's overall performance for me. It will take a lot more than that to change my opinion.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Just keep watching the offense and see how it does. That's what I'm going to do. My feelings about the situation are based on two things: Gibbs's refussl to pull Brunell last year before he had already lost us the season, and Gibbs's decision to yank Ramsey after one quarter against the Bears and put Brunell back in. As high as my opinion of Coach Gibbs is, I think his attachment to Brunell is an achilles heel that sank this team last year and threatens to do so again this year. The way the Cowboys game ended does not negate Brunell's overall performance for me. It will take a lot more than that to change my opinion.

Your last sentence is absolutley fair. I don't think anyone should be saying that Brunell had a great game on MNF, however, he's proven that he can hit the passes that his naysayers have said he cannot. And, according to most people, his arm strength was the only big weakness he had. Therefore, it would seem that maybe it's not a weakness afterall. It's not like he missed the earlier passes downfield by a lot.

As for Gibbs...I would think he's bought himself some credibility based on his unpopular QB decisions of the past. They all seemed to work out OK in the long run. He chose old Doug Williams over young Jay Schroeder. He chose Mark Rypien over Stan Humphries (who many thought was a better choice). If you go back, he seems to have a different opinion of what it takes to be a QB in the league.

[COOLhandsCOOLEY]

Just keep watching the offense and see how it does. That's what I'm going to do. My feelings about the situation are based on two things: Gibbs's refussl to pull Brunell last year before he had already lost us the season, and Gibbs's decision to yank Ramsey after one quarter against the Bears and put Brunell back in. As high as my opinion of Coach Gibbs is, I think his attachment to Brunell is an achilles heel that sank this team last year and threatens to do so again this year. The way the Cowboys game ended does not negate Brunell's overall performance for me. It will take a lot more than that to change my opinion.

To speak of overall performance, you may want to look at Brunell's overall history in the NFL. You may also want to realize that maybe Gibb's has taken into account P-Ram's overall performance in the NFL. If you have such a high opinion of coach Gibb's perhaps you could wait to editorialize about his 2005 failures until something has happend to warrant it. My overall feeling is also based on two things. Coach Gibbs has won 3 superbowls with 3 quarterbacks - Chances are he knows QB potential better than you or I. Secondly, The Redskins are 2-0 this year.

I am going to try and keep from continuing this argument, because honestly - Its been beaten to death. Keep your disdain for Brunell in your hip pocket and maybe just maybe you're right, but wouldnt your rather be wrong? I have supported Brunell since the start of preseason, when he looked like a different player. Yeah, I know that it was against second string defenses, but to say that there wasnt a glaring difference is flat out absurd. I was one of the people at the Bengals game that chanted for Patrick Ramsey to come and save us from Mark Brunell, but there is an old saying, "what have you done for me lately?" Well, Mr. Brunell just got a giant 10 y/o monkey off our backs.

I am going to try and leave this thread alone now. I sincerly apologize for the threadjack.

[Skins24]

But where is the proof that we punt less with Ramsey??

I'm going to go on a limb and say the more we score the less we punt. Right?

In less games we gained 132 points with Ramsey, we had 108 with Brunell. If you include this year it's 132 Ramsey, 131 Brunell. That's ~7.5 games for Ramsey, ~10.5 games with Brunell.

Brunell proved in those last 4 minutes of the Cowboy game that he has the ability to get the ball downfield when he wants to. I trust his judgement much more than I trust Ramsey's at this point.

Since throwing downfield seems to be how you pick which QB's judgment to trust....would you like to see the stats of 20+ yard pass plays by Ramsey vs. 20+ yard pass plays from Brunell?

Ramsey was unable to connect on any long passes all through the preseason and never attempted one in his one quarter of play vs. Chicago (his 41 yard pass was a crossing pattern over the middle that Moss turned into a long gain).

:doh:

Patten averaged 19.6 ypc

Moss averaged 19.4

(Thrash 17.8)

I guess you didn't see any Preseason games.

Therefore, the one big "knock" on Brunell (and "plus" for Ramsey) has been refuted to some extent since Brunell has gotten big plays downfield more than Ramsey.

Not really. Ramsey hasn't played this year (except for that one quarter), so you can't even say that based on this year. If you're including last year, then it's Ramsey who has gotten more big plays.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

1) I'm going to go on a limb and say the more we score the less we punt. Right?

In less games we gained 132 points with Ramsey, we had 108 with Brunell. If you include this year it's 132 Ramsey, 131 Brunell. That's ~7.5 games for Ramsey, ~10.5 games with Brunell.

2) Since throwing downfield seems to be how you pick which QB's judgment to trust....would you like to see the stats of 20+ yard pass plays by Ramsey vs. 20+ yard pass plays from Brunell?

3) :doh:

Patten averaged 19.6 ypc

Moss averaged 19.4

(Thrash 17.8)

I guess you didn't see any Preseason games.

4) Not really. Ramsey hasn't played this year (except for that one quarter), so you can't even say that based on this year. If you're including last year, then it's Ramsey who has gotten more big plays.

I don't know how to break your post up, so I'll number your points.

1) Ramsey moved the team more and we scored a little more over the last 7 games last year. But the staff admittedly made some changes to the offense to loosen things up. Not to mention, only someone with an agenda would say that Brunell doesn't look better than he did last year.

2) I guess my "trust of judgement" sentence was a bit out of place so I can see how that would be confusing. I guess what I meant to say was that Brunell was knocked for lacking the ability to get the ball deep. That is obviously not a problem this season. Therefore, all things being equal (physically), I trust MB's decisions more than PR's. He seems to take risks less often and plays to our defense.

3) Those are impressive stats but I can't remember one time that Ramsey hit a WR in stride on a deep ball. He throws the deep curls and outs very well, and Moss/Patten made a couple great adjustments on some underthrown deep balls during the preseason, but Brunell has exhibited the ability to throw a better deep pass so far (preseason and regular season).

4) I don't care about last year. If this were last year, the Bucs would suck, Eli wouldn't be playing, and the Cowboys would have a statue at QB (I guess something are the same ). What I care about (and this is ultimately where the Brunell people differ from the Ramsey people) is how the two have looked since the start of training camp. And it appears to me that Brunell has done a better job from that point forward. He's improved (or gotten healthy) from last year while I think Ramsey has not.

:2cents:

[The Sisko]

You all have made some good points in pounding what is, quite frankly, a very deceased equine specimen.

The actual point I was getting at in starting this thread was what if it isn't entirely Brunell? What if it's as much the offense as it is the QB? Then what?

If we just assume that Brunell is the problem and it is in fact a mediocre offensive design, we're going to be in trouble no matter who we put back there at QB. Were I Gibbs, I'd be contingency planning right now....and knowing him he may be;)

Again, we don't need 28 points per game. All we really need is an offensive system that can reliably get us 18-20 points per game and we're golden....as in deep into the playoffs. At this point, with all due respect to coach Gibbs, I haven't seen anything from our offense (with Ramsey OR Brunell as QB) that makes me think we're capable of reliably scoring that many points per game.