Report: Cindy Sheehan arrested at WH

[rictus58]

I'll like to ask some people on this board something. How would any of you feel if you lost a child or spouse in a war you didn't agree with? And I don't want to hear the standard copout "they join the military to serve there country and they knew this going in". I applaud what she's doing.

Is losing a friend/relative to Cancer/Gang violence/AIDS any worse than losing them to a war you "don't support"? I don't think so. It hurts no matter what. She is carrying on in a disgraceful manner. The fact that HER SON supported the war means a great deal to everyone except for her. She is not doing this for her son, in her sons name or any other way you want to spin it. She is doing it because she is either A) A crazy attention whire or doesn't know how to cope. In which case she needs therapy.

[Kilmer17]

Im sure he would, but would he agree with her actions?

[NavyDave]

Santa Claus would have kicked her to the curb by now like hubby did and the easter bunny have came out with both egg baskets blazin.

Don't you watch robot chicken??

[jamiroguy1]

Santa Claus would have kicked her to the curb by now like hubby did and the easter bunny have came out with both egg baskets blazin.

Don't you watch robot chicken??

:laugh:

[Art Monk Fan]

No, I got your point completely. You weren't unclear at all from your first post but my point that others that don't necessarily buy into your ideology and actually believe that she's heroic and pure class went sailing over your head. I might not necessarily agree with her and the method of her activism but at least I have the iq to understand that they're other opinions besides my own.

**horray for run on sentences!**

The I.Q. dig is uncalled for, but I won't bore you with my education/qualfications, to do so would be equally infantile on my part.

I suppose my difficulty lies in ascribing my belief on the issue to any ideology. Using someone to attack their own beliefs when they have no way to defend against it just doesn't seem honorable to me regardless of ideology.

I must admit though, that I am Catholic, so I'm not particularly adept with the application of moral equivalance. I forget that we are no longer bound by any sense of decency and may stoop as low as neccesary to forward our own goals and ideas. See, there I go again, there are no levels any more, all things are perfectly equal at all times -- morally equivalant.

[Guest sith lord]

Is losing a friend/relative to Cancer/Gang violence/AIDS any worse than losing them to a war you "don't support"? I don't think so. It hurts no matter what. She is carrying on in a disgraceful manner. The fact that HER SON supported the war means a great deal to everyone except for her. She is not doing this for her son, in her sons name or any other way you want to spin it. She is doing it because she is either A) A crazy attention whire or doesn't know how to cope. In which case she needs therapy.

Is that all you know how to do? So what? I don't believe man stepped foot on the moon. I could be wrong, but who really cares? Is it that big of a deal? And how do you know she's not doing it for her son? Don't believe everything the "fair and balanced" Fox tells you.

[NavyDave]

I was still intrigued at how the numbers were inflated for the anti american protest on saturday and how pathetic the speechers were.

Especially the embarassing liberal congressional chick from Atlanta turning it into a black thing as expected. " the govt makes sure the poor people stay poor and the rich people stay rich." :doh:

Then Jesse Jackson equating sheehan to someone who didn't want to go back to the bus.

[Art Monk Fan]

PSST! :shhh: BTW, SithLord :paranoid: you're right about the moon, man didn't set foot on it :paranoid: he set boot. :laugh:

[ccsl2]

I don't hate her, I just think she has no honor. Whether she agreed with him or not, her son died for his convictions and now she invokes his name (Camp Casey, etc) to fight against the cause for which he gave his life. Classy.

so are people mad at the message or mad at how the message is being sent?IMO if her son was not in the war and she was conveying the same message, she still would get hate...she is damn if she does and damn if she doesn't.

[Art Monk Fan]

so are people mad at the message or mad at how the message is being sent?IMO if her son was not in the war and she was conveying the same message, she still would get hate...she is damn if she does and damn if she doesn't.

If she didn't invoke her son's name she'd be just another of the many protesters wandering around DC. I'd still think she was wrong and I'd still support her right to be wrong, but I wouldn't think she was a disgrace.

[jamiroguy1]

The I.Q. dig is uncalled for, but I won't bore you with my education/qualfications, to do so would be equally infantile on my part.

I suppose my difficulty lies in ascribing my belief on the issue to any ideology. Using someone to attack their own beliefs when they have no way to defend against it just doesn't seem honorable to me regardless of ideology.

I must admit though, that I am Catholic, so I'm not particularly adept with the application of moral equivalance. I forget that we are no longer bound by any sense of decency and may stoop as low as neccesary to forward our own goals and ideas. See, there I go again, there are no levels any more, all things are perfectly equal at all times -- morally equivalant.

touche'.. I trust that you're an educated man so you don't have to prove it to me.

But you are right...morals and decency are totally relative now adays and you and I both would be a bigot by definition to claim moral superiority over any group or person that didn't agree with us.

[ccsl2]

...and what if the easter bunny and santa claus were here? What would they tell her? We can play that game all day.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

[Hooper]

There's definitely something about her that irks me. What I find interesting is that it's come out that Pat Tillman was anti-iraq war and anti-Bush. Never would have guessed that.

[rictus58]

Is that all you know how to do? So what? I don't believe man stepped foot on the moon. I could be wrong, but who really cares? Is it that big of a deal? And how do you know she's not doing it for her son? Don't believe everything the "fair and balanced" Fox tells you.

1)I don't understand your first question. I guess I don't understand what "that" is.

2)The fact that you don't believe men have walked on the moon questions you ability to arrive at rational conclusions.

3)I know she's not doing it for her son because if she was, she would take into account her Sons actions and value system. Which, BTW, she seems to know nothing about.

4) I don't watch Fox news. its too far up the dial on DirecTv.

[jamiroguy1]

There's definitely something about her that irks me. What I find interesting is that it's come out that Pat Tillman was anti-iraq war and anti-Bush. Never would have guessed that.

link?

[rictus58]

If she didn't invoke her son's name she'd be just another of the many protesters wandering around DC. I'd still think she was wrong and I'd still support her right to be wrong, but I wouldn't think she was a disgrace.

EXACTLY :applause:

[jamiroguy1]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

[Hooper]

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/09/25/MNGD7ETMNM1.DTL

Very interesting article. Here are the excerpts I was referring to --

"Interviews also show a side of Pat Tillman not widely known — a fiercely independent thinker who enlisted, fought and died in service to his country yet was critical of President Bush and opposed the war in Iraq, where he served a tour of duty. He was an avid reader whose interests ranged from history books on World War II and Winston Churchill to works of leftist Noam Chomsky, a favorite author."

Yet other Tillman family members are less reluctant to show Tillman’s unique character, which was more complex than the public image of a gung-ho patriotic warrior. He started keeping a journal at 16 and continued the practice on the battlefield, writing in it regularly. (His journal was lost immediately after his death.) Mary Tillman said a friend of Pat’s even arranged a private meeting with Chomsky, the antiwar author, to take place after his return from Afghanistan — a meeting prevented by his death. She said that although he supported the Afghan war, believing it justified by the Sept. 11 attacks, “Pat was very critical of the whole Iraq war.”

Baer, who served with Tillman for more than a year in Iraq and Afghanistan, told one anecdote that took place during the March 2003 invasion as the Rangers moved up through southern Iraq.

“I can see it like a movie screen,” Baer said. “We were outside of (a city in southern Iraq) watching as bombs were dropping on the town. We were at an old air base, me, Kevin and Pat, we weren’t in the fight right then. We were talking. And Pat said, ‘You know, this war is so f— illegal.’ And we all said, ‘Yeah.’ That’s who he was. He totally was against Bush.”

Another soldier in the platoon, who asked not to be identified, said Pat urged him to vote for Bush’s Democratic opponent in the 2004 election, Sen. John Kerry.

Senior Chief Petty Officer Stephen White — a Navy SEAL who served with Pat and Kevin for four months in Iraq and was the only military member to speak at Tillman’s memorial — said Pat “wasn’t very fired up about being in Iraq” and instead wanted to go fight al Qaeda in Afghanistan. He said both Pat and Kevin (who has a degree in philosophy) “were amazingly well-read individuals … very firm in some of their beliefs, their political and religious or not so religious beliefs.”

[ccsl2]

If she didn't invoke her son's name she'd be just another of the many protesters wandering around DC. I'd still think she was wrong and I'd still support her right to be wrong, but I wouldn't think she was a disgrace.

I understand what you are saying...I just think that she has more credibility than anyone to speak out against the war because her son lost his life in a war she felt (and maybe he did too, no one knows) was unjust/uneccesary/wrong whatever...I just don't think attacking her for using HER son's name and calling her a terrorist or un-american is very classy either

[Guest sith lord]

1)I don't understand your first question. I guess I don't understand what "that" is.

2)The fact that you don't believe men have walked on the moon questions you ability to arrive at rational conclusions.

3)I know she's not doing it for her son because if she was, she would take into account her Sons actions and value system. Which, BTW, she seems to know nothing about.

4) I don't watch Fox news. its too far up the dial on DirecTv.

1. I think you know what "that" is. You put what I said about man and the moon on all of your post like I should be embarrassed. You've done it before. Let me tell you, I could care less If man tap danced on the moon with Sammy Davis Jr and moonwalked with Micheal Jackson. It really makes no difference to me.

2. I don't believe in bigfoot either, but many people do. So what's you're point?

3. There's probably more to the story than you or I know. There always is.

4. I'm sorry if you don't watch Fox. It was just an observation.

[Art Monk Fan]

I understand what you are saying...I just think that she has more credibility than anyone to speak out against the war because her son lost his life in a war she felt (and maybe he did too, no one knows) was unjust/uneccesary/wrong whatever...I just don't think attacking her for using HER son's name and calling her a terrorist or un-american is very classy either

I've never once called her a terrorist nor even implied she was un-American.

I think her husband, numerous family members and the actions of her son give a pretty clear indication of Casey's feelings about the war -- they seem to differ from his mother's.

I don't see where her loss qualifies her in any way to make a more rational assessment of our commitments in Iraq or in the War on Terror. For me she loses credibility when she claims her son died becuase the President "lied" to him to get him to enlist. Upon examination of the actual order of events, the "revelations" that brought Cindy Sheehan to believe the President had "lied" all came out before her son re-inlisted and volunteered for the mission on which he died. He appears to have known exactly what she knew, yet acted in the opposite manner.

[ccsl2]

I've never once called her a terrorist nor even implied she was un-American.

I think her husband, numerous family members and the actions of her son give a pretty clear indication of Casey's feelings about the war -- they seem to differ from his mother's.

I don't see where her loss qualifies her in any way to make a more rational assessment of our commitments in Iraq or in the War on Terror. For me she loses credibility when she claims her son died becuase the President "lied" to him to get him to enlist. Upon examination of the actual order of events, the "revelations" that brought Cindy Sheehan to believe the President had "lied" all came out before her son re-inlisted and volunteered for the mission on which he died. He appears to have known exactly what she knew, yet acted in the opposite manner.

AMF,

I am not saying you called her a terrorist or Un-american, but I have heard and read that. Ok, do you honestly believe that the President lied directly to her son? I know he didn't. But the whole rationale to going to war was based on faulty intelligence and lies/half truths at best...We all know that...And we don't know what her son knew or thought about the war because he is DEAD.

We don't know what his rationale was for going into the military. I mean I just think it is awfully contradictory for people to call her disgraceful, when the US used what supposedly happened to Pat Tillman as a rallying cry across the country to back the US in the war (Remember, Officals made it out to look like Tillman died a heroic death in Iraq, when in actuality he died from freindly fire). I just think that when it comes to people speaking out against the war, we go too far sometimes by calling them un american or not supporting the soldiers.

They way Sheenan is going about things is maybe incorrect, but instead of analyzing the actual message she is sending, people want to focus on her using her son's name in protest to the war. And IMO, that missing the point entirely.

[Spaceman Spiff]

:munchout:

[rictus58]

1. I think you know what "that" is. You put what I said about man and the moon on all of your post like I should be embarrassed.

Its part of my signature now!

If you aren't embarrassed, it shouldnt bother you.

You should be happy I'm here to further your beliefs.

[Skins24]

What I want to know about this whole Sheehan thing is...

Who's paying her and how much?

http://www.thereporter.com/republished/ci_2923921 (<---Original site of the article, but whole article isn't posted)

Here's the whole article on another site

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1458638/posts

Bush, Sheehans share moments (The Reporter (Vacaville, CA) ^ | June 24, 2004 | David Henson

Since learning in April that their son, Army Spc. Casey Sheehan, had been killed in Iraq, life has been everything but normal for the Sheehan family of Vacaville. Casey's parents, Cindy and Patrick, as well as their three children, have attended event after event honoring the soldier both locally and abroad, received countless letters of support and fielded questions from reporters across the country.

"That's the way our whole lives have been since April 4," Patrick said. "It's been surreal."

But none of that prepared the family for the message left on their answering machine last week, inviting them to have a face-to-face meeting with President George W. Bush at Fort Lewis near Seattle.

Surreal soon seemed like an understatement, as the Sheehans - one of 17 families who met Thursday with Bush - were whisked in a matter of days to the Army post and given the VIP treatment from the military. But as their meeting with the president approached, the family was faced with a dilemma as to what to say when faced with Casey's commander-in-chief.

"We haven't been happy with the way the war has been handled," Cindy said. "The president has changed his reasons for being over there every time a reason is proven false or an objective reached."

The 10 minutes of face time with the president could have given the family a chance to vent their frustrations or ask Bush some of the difficult questions they have been asking themselves, such as whether Casey's sacrifice would make the world a safer place.

But in the end, the family decided against such talk, deferring to how they believed Casey would have wanted them to act. In addition, Pat noted that Bush wasn't stumping for votes or trying to gain a political edge for the upcoming election.

"We have a lot of respect for the office of the president, and I have a new respect for him because he was sincere and he didn't have to take the time to meet with us," Pat said.

Sincerity was something Cindy had hoped to find in the meeting. Shortly after Casey died, Bush sent the family a form letter expressing his condolences, and Cindy said she felt it was an impersonal gesture.

"I now know he's sincere about wanting freedom for the Iraqis," Cindy said after their meeting. "I know he's sorry and feels some pain for our loss. And I know he's a man of faith."

The meeting didn't last long, but in their time with Bush, Cindy spoke about Casey and asked the president to make her son's sacrifice count for something. They also spoke of their faith.

While meeting with Bush, as well as Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, was an honor, it was almost a tangent benefit of the trip. The Sheehans said they enjoyed meeting the other families of fallen soldiers, sharing stories, contact information, grief and support.

For some, grief was still visceral and raw, while for others it had melted into the background of their lives, the pain as common as breathing. Cindy said she saw her reflection in the troubled eyes of each.

"It's hard to lose a son," she said. "But we (all) lost a son in the Iraqi war."

The trip had one benefit that none of the Sheehans expected.

For a moment, life returned to the way it was before Casey died. They laughed, joked and bickered playfully as they briefly toured Seattle.

For the first time in 11 weeks, they felt whole again.

"That was the gift the president gave us, the gift of happiness, of being together," Cindy said.

***

1. What does she think another meeting with Bush will accomplish?

2. Why did it take over a year for her to 180?

3. Why was it OK for her to respect her son and act in a way in which he would have wanted her to act then, but it's not OK now?