Soldiers of the 82'd come out against torture

[chomerics]

This has been falling under the radar, but 4 soldiers from the 82nd came out against torture that was going on, and it fell on deaf ears by their commanders. This is from Andrew Sullivan's blog yesterday.

Friday, September 23, 2005

THE SHAMING OF AMERICA: Just read the latest account of what has happened to some of the U.S. military under this administration. Be sure to compare it with the propaganda put out only yesterday by National Review on this very subject. I have been trying to raise the alarm about what has really been going on for a while. But the abuse and torture claims have been dismissed or ignored. But even the torture-denialists will be unable to ignore this new material. It beggars belief. That this could be America. That this president's abandonment of the legal ban on inhumane treatment of military detainees has brought us to this:

The new allegations center around systematic abuse of Iraqi detainees by men of the 82nd Airborne at Camp Mercury, a forward operating base located near Fallujah, the scene of a major uprising against the U.S. occupation in April 2004, according to sources familiar with the report and accounts given by the Captain, who is in his mid-20s, to Senate staff. Much of the abuse allegedly occurred in 2003 and 2004, before and during the period the Army was conducting an internal investigation into the Abu Ghraib prison scandal, but prior to when the abuses at Abu Ghraib became public. Other alleged abuses described in the Human Rights report occurred at Camp Tiger, near Iraq's border with Syria, and previously in Afghanistan. In addition, the report details what the Captain says was his unsuccessful effort over 17 months to get the attention of military superiors. Ultimately he approached the Republican senators.

The Human Rights Watch report—as well as accounts given to Senate staff—describe officers as aware of the abuse but routinely ignoring or covering it up, amid chronic confusion over U.S. military detention policies and whether or not the Geneva Convention applied. The Captain is quoted in the report describing how military intelligence personnel at Camp Mercury directed enlisted men to conduct daily beatings of prisoners prior to questioning; to subject detainees to strenuous forced exercises to the point of unconsciousness; and to expose them to extremes of heat and cold—all methods designed to produce greater cooperation with interrogators. Non-uniformed personnel—apparently working for the Central Intelligence Agency, according to the soldiers—also interrogated prisoners. The interrogators were out of view but not out of earshot of the soldiers, who overheard what they came to believe was abuse.

Specific instances of abuse described in the Human Rights Watch report include severe beatings, including one incident when a soldier allegedly broke a detainee's leg with a metal bat. Others include prisoners being stacked in human pyramids (unlike the human pyramids at Abu Ghraib, the prisoners at Camp Mercury were clothed); soldiers administering blows to the face, chest and extremities of prisoners; and detainees having their faces and eyes exposed to burning chemicals, being forced into stress positions for long periods leading to unconsciousness and having their water and food withheld.

The full, harrowing report can be read here. This is not enemy propaganda. This is the testimony of decent American soldiers so appalled by what they were witnessing that they felt compelled, after being ignored by their superiors and the administration, to go directly to senators to get their complaints aired. Rumsfeld must resign. Now.

Here is Andrew Sullivan's blog. For those who don't know, Sullivan has long been a log cabin republican, and Bush suporter.

[wskin44]

It's been clear for some time that abuse of prisoners is a Pentagon/Administration policy that has no chance of changing until the Administration is changed.

[Sarge]

Hmmmm.

A leftist magazine

Human RIghts Watch

And a, shall we say, girlie man repubican:rolleyes:

Good finds:doh:

[wskin44]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/23/AR2005092301897.html

New Reports Surface About Detainee Abuse

Mistreatment Was Routine, Soldiers Say

By Josh White

Washington Post Staff Writer

Saturday, September 24, 2005; Page A01

Two soldiers and an officer with the Army's 82nd Airborne Division have told a human rights organization of systemic detainee abuse and human rights violations at U.S. bases in Afghanistan and Iraq, recounting beatings, forced physical exertion and psychological torture of prisoners, the group said.

A 30-page report by Human Rights Watch describes an Army captain's 17-month effort to gain clear understanding of how U.S. soldiers were supposed to treat detainees, and depicts his frustration with what he saw as widespread abuse that the military's leadership failed to address. The Army officer made clear that he believes low-ranking soldiers have been held responsible for abuse to cover for officers who condoned it.

The report does not identify the two sergeants and a captain who gave the accounts, although Capt. Ian Fishback has presented some of his allegations in a letter to Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.).

Their statements included vivid allegations of violence against detainees held at Forward Operating Base Mercury, outside Fallujah, shortly before the notorious abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison began. The soldiers described incidents similar to those reported in other parts of Iraq -- such as putting detainees in stress positions, exercising them to the point of total exhaustion, and sleep deprivation.

They also detailed regular attacks that left detainees with broken bones -- including once when a detainee was hit with a metal bat -- and said that detainees were sometimes piled into pyramids, a tactic seen in photographs taken later at Abu Ghraib.

"Some days we would just get bored so we would have everyone sit in a corner and then make them get in a pyramid," an unidentified sergeant who worked at the base from August 2003 to April 2004 told Human Rights Watch. "This was before Abu Ghraib but just like it. We did that for amusement."

And like soldiers accused at Abu Ghraib, these troops said that military intelligence interrogators encouraged their actions, telling them to make sure the detainees did not sleep or were physically exhausted so as to get them to talk.

"They were directed to get intel from them so we had to set the conditions by banging on their cages, crashing them into the cages, kicking them, kicking dirt, yelling," the soldier was quoted as saying. Later he described how he and others beat the detainees. "But you gotta understand, this was the norm. Everyone would just sweep it under the rug."

Army and Pentagon officials yesterday said they are investigating the allegations as criminal cases and said they learned of the incidents just weeks ago when the Fort Bragg captain's concerns surfaced. Paul Boyce, an Army spokesman, said the Army began investigating as soon as it learned of the allegations.

Lt. Col. John Skinner, a Pentagon spokesman, severely criticized the report and emphasized that the military has taken incidents of detainee abuse extremely seriously since the Abu Ghraib scandal, changing policies and procedures to prevent such mistreatment. There have been hundreds of criminal investigations and more than a dozen major inquiries.

"This is another predictable report by an organization trying to advance an agenda through the use of distortions and errors in fact," Skinner said. "It's a shame they refuse to convey how seriously the military has investigated all known credible allegations of detainee abuse and how we've looked at all aspects of detention operations under a microscope. . . . Humane treatment has always been the standard no matter how much certain organizations want people to believe otherwise."

In addition to talking to Human Rights Watch, Fishback has made his concerns known in a series of signed letters and memos sent to Capitol Hill. Fishback, a West Point graduate who has served in Afghanistan and Iraq, wrote that no one in his chain of command has been able to give him a clear explanation of what humane treatment is, and he believes that U.S. soldiers have regularly violated the Geneva Conventions by torturing detainees and taking family members hostage as a means of coercion.

"Despite my efforts, I have been unable to get clear, consistent answers from my leadership about what constitutes lawful and humane treatment of detainees," Fishback wrote in a Sept. 16 letter to McCain, a member of the Armed Services Committee and a former prisoner of war in Vietnam. "I am certain that this confusion contributed to a wide range of abuses including death threats, beatings, broken bones, murder, exposure to elements, extreme forced physical exertion, hostage-taking, stripping, sleep deprivation and degrading treatment." Fishback, reached by telephone yesterday, declined to comment.

Tom Malinowski, Washington advocacy director for Human Rights Watch, said yesterday that the report again shows the need for an independent investigation into detainee abuse, and for Congress to define how U.S. soldiers are to treat detainees in their custody. "Even officers who wanted to behave honorably found it difficult to do so because there was no clarity about what the rules are," Malinowski said.

[Sarge]

ANd the Compost adds some "credibility"

[Larry]

ANd the Compost adds some "credibility"

And Sarge adds nothing.

[wskin44]

Sarge, do you not believe these guys?

[Larry]

Just occured to me, this thing may get a whole lot uglier, real quick.

IIR, one of the Abu Garahib soldiers court martial is begining now.

I'm wondering what will happen if the defense lawyer tries to call these soldiers as witnesses, to support a claim that the abuses his client is charged with were, in fact, both routine and condoned by the command structure.

[Cdowwe]

This world is going to Sh!t when you cant abuse someone who minutes ago was shooting at you for information. And the Liberals wonder why the fighting is tough.

[Larry]

It all started when they outlawed branding irons.

[NoCalMike]

"a girle-man republican" ?

Ok, so once again someone who has been so much in favor of Bush and this war for so long, until the evidence against him was gathered and put in front of his face, is cast aside as a leftist or in this case, not a REAL republican, because he is another in the long line of conservatives that are waking up and putting policy before their allegience to a person with an ® next to their name.

[Destino]

Haven't we already heard that the pictures being held onto by the defense dept. were far worse then the ones released. I think "rape and murder" were words used to describe them. So why is there so much questioning of charges going on if our own government is telling us horrible things happened and that they fully intend to cover it up.

[webnarc]

This world is going to Sh!t when you cant abuse someone who minutes ago was shooting at you for information. And the Liberals wonder why the fighting is tough.

Can you please explain to me what the above post means?

The fighting is tough because it's a war and NOT because abuse is not allowed, and if you read the articles, abuse IS occurring.

And abuse isn't a conservative or liberal issue, try not to politicize it.

[Cdowwe]

Can you please explain to me what the above post means?

The fighting is tough because it's a war and NOT because abuse is not allowed, and if you read the articles, abuse IS occurring.

And abuse isn't a conservative or liberal issue, try not to politicize it.

It means this war would be going alot better if we could interrogate prisoners in an agressive manner. Abuse is a political issue because its always the liberal groups who whine about it.

[Joe Sick]

It means this war would be going alot better if we could interrogate prisoners in an agressive manner. Abuse is a political issue because its always the liberal groups who whine about it.

So you have no problem when the other side tortures our guys, or worse?

How about when Ashcroft said that "I condemn torture. I don't think it's productive, let alone justified."

[Sarge]

OK, before this thread goes on, define "Abuse"

[Sarge]

Sarge, do you not believe these guys?

It depends. If they are saying "abuse" is slapping around, tying up/chaining up, a few smacks upside the head, then I don't consider that abuse, and those guys are panises.

IF they saw someone driving bamboo shoots up someone's fingernails, then they have a case

[Larry]

How about when Ashcroft said that "I condemn torture. I don't think it's productive, let alone justified."

"And pay no attention to those legal opinions, drawn up at the request of this administration, that say that pouring gasoline on people and lighting it is torture, but pulling out fingernails isn't. I'm opposed to gasoline."

Remember, he's publicly condemming "torture" while also claiming, in writing, that anything short of the failure of major internal organs isn't torture.

[Larry]

Abuse is a political issue because its always the liberal groups who whine about it.

Perhaps that's because it's always the "conservative" guys who order it?

[Cdowwe]

Perhaps that's because it's always the "conservative" guys who order it?

Go ask those soldiers over there if they would be ok with the torture of someone who was just shooting at them, to stop future attacks. Everyone of them would agree. And you wonder why the Conservatives order it. Look who its helping.

[Leonard Washington]

torture probably means different things to different people. i'm sure there are things all soldiers are asked to do that they don't feel comfortable doing.

[APBT]

If these guys didnt want to go back(Iraq) all they had to do is complain about their wisdom teeth or act real crazy. I dont believe these guys at all.

[webnarc]

It means this war would be going alot better if we could interrogate prisoners in an agressive manner. Abuse is a political issue because its always the liberal groups who whine about it.

Okay, I believe it was you who made it a political issue here.

My problems with abusing people (Sarge, the gay pile-on, the urine facial, and the stuff with the feces is what I have particular issues with; that's is my opinion of some of the things that are abuse) is that it doesn't help anything. And in most cases it really pisses people off and people say anything they need to to get the abuse to stop, that's all. It doesn't make for good quality information.

Here's the thing Cdowwe, IS the war going well given that abuse is occuring?

[dreamingwolf]

what is acceptable methods of information gathering?

Honestly, I want to know what you Bush haters believe are acceptable levels?

[chomerics]

what is acceptable methods of information gathering?

Honestly, I want to know what you Bush haters believe are acceptable levels?

Obide by the GWP, you know the pact that was signed over 50 years ago, and has been used as the defining document concerning prisoners.

And Sarge, before you start to go and say this was a "leftist" magazine, are you actually saying the 3 soldiers of the 82nd were lying? Are these soldiers "leftist" because they saw the abuses, tried to report it and got nowhere? I mean lets talk about the issue instead of playing politics and ignoring it.

This was in a letter from the Capt. who witness the torture, to John McCain.

"I am certain that this confusion contributed to a wide range of abuses including death threats, beatings, broken bones, murder, exposure to elements, extreme forced physical exertion, hostage-taking, stripping, sleep deprivation and degrading treatment." Fishback, reached by telephone yesterday, declined to comment.