Brunell: Too Deep (video analysis)

[Hooper]

Solid analysis. I'm far from sold on Brunell, but I support the move. Ramsey is simply too easy to beat -- all you have to do to beat him is blitz him. He seems almost incapable of finding his hot receiver or heck, making any kind of quick, smart decision when pressured. The situation here has been far from perfect for Ramsey, but I just haven't seen any growth at all. I really, really hope JC can play.

[natem985]

This season needs to be salvaged FROM conservative game planning. With our O-line and recievers I'd rather go down firing the ball downfield than dinking and dunking and punting.

2004 - NEVER AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!

Good post Nibbs, thanks for the research!

I agree with that. If we see a 2004 offense against the Cowboys and later in the season, its going to be awful hard for our Defense and rushing attack to win games.

The most impressive throw I've seen MB throw in Washington was the one to Gardner last yr in the MNF game vs. Dallas. He dropped back deep, rolled to his right, stepped into his throw and threw a strike across his body to 50/50 in the back of the endzone. I didn't throw another impressive throw from him the rest of the season...but that play makes me believe that if he would just STOP the happy feet and step into his throws, he could deliver a strike if he wanted to. Why he has happy feet? I have no idea...but the hamstring injury doesn't seem to be the cause, because he looked the same in the pocket against the Bears as he did last year.

Hoping for the best against the Cowboys tomorrow night. Time to whoop them boys, while watching the Giants brought down to earth on National TV.

[jrockster21]

Okay, Nibbs, but the question remains...does this outweight Ramsey's poor decisions and holding on to the ball too long?

[Ghost of]

Okay, Nibbs, but the question remains...does this outweight Ramsey's poor decisions and holding on to the ball too long?

Does it?

Put it this way--if he starts doing the same things he did in 2004 with regard to his fear of the pocket and of the hit, then yes it does and we've seen the evidence of that. I think he'll be improved in that area, and being healthier will help. But if he reinjures that leg or if he suddenly is gripped again with fear of stepping UP into the pocket, then yeah.

And did Ramsey's oh-so-poor decisions and holding the ball too long kill the Skins last year? Who won more games per games played WITH the same 'excuses' that Brunell had(bad and hurt line, ineffective running, etc)

But as I said, this is about tape review of Brunell, I just had Ramsey to compare because i noticed he stepped up, if I had tape of another NFL QB available to analyze, I'd have done that.

[skinsmania123]

Good post Ghost. Chubakah...has never wanted Ramsey, so he can't even fathom the concept "objectivity." And frankly I think there are still a lot of us that would have liked to see Ramsey have 3-4 games before Joe went with his "gut feeling."

I do not want to see Brunell start. Frankly it sickens me. I just see him staring up at Demarcus Ware from his butt, over and over again because he cannot find the open man. The man has no arm. Dink and dunk. Dink and dunk.

[Ghost of]

But I don't think it's his "arm" per se. It's his throwing base. It's usually off and his drops are too deep(and he seems to take a couple steps to plant, rather than at the end of a normal ___-step drop. His arm itself isn't any weaker than a lot of guys but he does things that diminish it during a given play. The worst thing, though, seems to be a level of fear of contact and the pocket, even when the pocket is great.

[TheSteve]

You're right on Ghost. I noticed this last year it drove me crazy. Brunell reminds me a bit of Jake Plummer in that regard. As for JRocksters question about which is worse, would you rather not have a shot to win it in the air if our running game is shut down or not?

[CHUBAKAH]

Good post Ghost. Chubakah...has never wanted Ramsey, so he can't even fathom the concept "objectivity."

Ya know your right. I have never for one second wanted Ramsey, and you know why? It's because he sucks, and quite frankly there is nothing to be objective about. Some of us saw it earlier than others, but the writing on the wall has been there since he came to the Skins. It's very sad what blind faith has done to some of the fans of this team. Same old excuses over and over and over and over again.

Yeah Brunell is pretty bad too, and last year he was even worse, but never did I have a doubt about his thinking. I'll never argue that Ramsey has the physical tools over Brunell. I'd say that's also pretty obvious.

What he does have is a history in the NFL, and one bad year is not going to close the door for me, or several of the other fans.

I'm sorry a lot of you don't like the way I post, or go into all the details of why I say the things I do. I feel I don't need to go into the details that a lot of you do. To me, it's a waste of time and or effort, because no matter what I say, there are going to be people there to argue, and try and post stats, or situations where he did this, and he did that.

I think the problem that some of you have with me, is the fact that up to now, I have been right about Ramsey. Even Goldenstar95 [sorry if I got the name wrong] was willing to throw away $25k when I said Ramsey would be benched this season.

I'm not the type of person who likes to stick his chest out and make posts like "Brunell will be the downfall of this team" and then start a huge following on the internet, but I will speak up about blind faith -vs- just plain old obvious football knowledge. It's really too bad some people don't have the nuts to speak up, I know there are a ton of you who feel the same way I do.

Fact is, it would have been nice if I was wrong, but I wasn't, and your buddy Ramsey sits the bench. Patrick is a very likeable guy, and I have never meant any disrespect to him, or any of his family members who may visit this site. I just call it like I see it. I've never one time thought Ramsey had "It", and I'm convinced he never will.

Sue me

:2cents:

[CHUBAKAH]

And what did I say in the first paragraph of this post. Deal with the video analysis and my REASONS for being uncomfortable or don't. If you posted a counter or said, "hey, I feel ya buddy, but unfortunately we can't do anything about it" then that would be fine.

Here's my counter to you directly.

Last week Ramsey was the starter, and the game plan was for Ramsey and his strengths. Should you be able to completly change your gameplan mid game and come out looking like they game planned for you? Yeah, I agree he maybe should have looked better than he did. Let's remember I am not convinced Brunell is the answer either, I just think he is the lessor of two evils because of his past.

How about we just give it a game with Brunell at the helm, with a game plan based on his play ability, and then we do a video breakdown.

You'll still never for one second convince me Ramsey is better than a healthy Brunell, but at least we will be on a fair playing field.

Sorry if I offended you, I know you spent a lot of time with this thread.

You know where we stand on this issue, to me it just seems a bit pointless now.

[No_Pressure]

Yet another falsehood. Sorry, review the tape. Brunell is the one who takes more steps per drop than Ramsey. ramsey appears to take the normal amount of steps in his DROP(chop steps forward is not a BAD thing, you may be confusing the two)

3 step drop.

1-2-3-SET-THROW

not:

1-2-3 set *tap ball*set set set set*tap ball* set set set set *tap ball*set set set *tap ball*set set set*tap ball* throw badly.

You want the best footwork EVER look at Joe Montana. All of the Skins' QB's are far off. Closest would be Campbell.

[jrockster21]

3 step drop.

1-2-3-SET-THROW

not:

1-2-3 set *tap ball*set set set set*tap ball* set set set set *tap ball*set set set *tap ball*set set set*tap ball* throw badly.

You want the best footwork EVER look at Joe Montana. All of the Skins' QB's are far off. Closest would be Campbell.

In our QBs' defense, it doesn't hurt when you've got Jerry Rice to throw to!

[Ghost of]

3 step drop.

1-2-3-SET-THROW

not:

1-2-3 set *tap ball*set set set set*tap ball* set set set set *tap ball*set set set *tap ball*set set set*tap ball* throw badly.

You want the best footwork EVER look at Joe Montana. All of the Skins' QB's are far off. Closest would be Campbell.

You've really been listening to media types---I just reviewed BOTH Brunell and Pat and neither of them did what you said in their first several passes.

STop making crap up and/or parroting what you heard someone else say.

And lots of Qbs pat and take set steps to find the receiver. Do you even watch games? You don't take THREE steps and throw except on passes that dictate that--like Ramsey's INT vs. the Bears or a couple of Brunell's attempts. On deeper drops and on different types of plays, you don't just drop and throw. Watch a GAME this year first.

[No_Pressure]

MMM absolutly not, you say Ramsey hasnt done it yet you review tapes of it? Jesus how does it feel to lie through your teeth?

[Ghost of]

MMM absolutly not, you say Ramsey hasnt done it yet you review tapes of it? Jesus how does it feel to lie through your teeth?

I said BOTH Brunell and Ramsey's first several passes, including timing throws(3 steps and pass) and deeper drops.

I didn't say they NEVER did anything. But watch some OTHER QBs some time that are successful rather than inventing flaws that may or may not exist.

I'm not lying, I just finished reviewing the tape, child.

Sorry, you sound like you want to know what you're talking about, but you don't and it's apparent. Also work on reading comprehension, as I said I just reviewed first several passes. It is YOU who are spreading falsehood.

[stevenaa]

Some of you guys need to get a life. We can't make a bit of difference on the field, so how is it helpful to waste so much energy. I love the Skins and will root for them regardles. I will look for things that are positive so I can get some enjoyment until the team starts winning. I don't know if Brunnel is going to be ok. I don't know if PR is not going to make it as an NFL starter. I do know I can't control things either way.

[No_Pressure]

Whats the "first several passes" ****? Did I EVER say anything about the Chicago game? I said Ramsey HAS done it, he did it vs. the Rams I believe years ago and a few other less memorable times. I DO know what im talking about, apparently YOU are the one who lacks comprehension of what someone is saying. Never once had I mentioned Chicago, you only assumed it.

I heard a stupid saying once: "When you assume you make an ASS out of U and ME."

[Ghost of]

stevenaa

One might as well say that people who study history or the role of XYZ seemingly insignificant factor in a war or treaty or social development are wasting their lives. It's done and we have no control over it.

[Ghost of]

You've really been listening to media types---I just reviewed BOTH Brunell and Pat and neither of them did what you said in their first several passes.

STop making crap up and/or parroting what you heard someone else say.

And lots of Qbs pat and take set steps to find the receiver. Do you even watch games? You don't take THREE steps and throw except on passes that dictate that--like Ramsey's INT vs. the Bears or a couple of Brunell's attempts. On deeper drops and on different types of plays, you don't just drop and throw. Watch a GAME this year first.

MMM absolutly not, you say Ramsey hasnt done it yet you review tapes of it? Jesus how does it feel to lie through your teeth?

You called me a liar based on the fact that neither Ramsey nor Brunell were guilty of what you claimed in the passes that I SPECIFICALLY REFERRED to.

You can't worm your way out of it--the words are there for everyone to see. Based on what I said about one game and a sample of passes, I said they didn't do XYZ. You said I was lying, meaning I was seeing what you claimed but didn't admit to it. That is you being clueless, dude.

Nothing you say about "oh, I mean, they DID do it at one point" absolves you of guilt in this instance.

[JimmiJo]

Ghost stop being a PR homer, admit that he has played badly and let's move on. I don't think anyone is suggesting Brunell is the man (although I think he will be better than last year), I think the sense is one of the following:

1) People believe he gives us a better chance for victory because he does not make the butthead mistakes PR does

2) People believe Gibbs knows better than us

In any event the decision has been made and we have a game tomorrow, a big one. What will you, sit and root against Brunell, analyze closely and report on every bad throw/mistake? Or will you be rooting for the 'Skins like the rest of us?

What say you?

[jrockster21]

You called me a liar based on the fact that neither Ramsey nor Brunell were guilty of what you claimed in the passes that I SPECIFICALLY REFERRED to.

You can't worm your way out of it--the words are there for everyone to see. Based on what I said about one game and a sample of passes, I said they didn't do XYZ. You said I was lying, meaning I was seeing what you claimed but didn't admit to it. That is you being clueless, dude.

Nothing you say about "oh, I mean, they DID do it at one point" absolves you of guilt in this instance.

Hey, The-Rock, you just got

[Ghost of]

Ghost stop being a PR homer, admit that he has played badly and let's move on. I don't think anyone is suggesting Brunell is the man (although I think he will be better than last year), I think the sense is one of the following:

1) People believe he gives us a better chance for victory because he does not make the butthead mistakes PR does

2) People believe Gibbs knows better than us

In any event the decision has been made and we have a game tomorrow, a big one. What will you, sit and root against Brunell, analyze closely and report on every bad throw/mistake? Or will you be rooting for the 'Skins like the rest of us?

What say you?

And again, all I did was compare mark with patrick because that's what I had available. I'm talking about BRUNELL here, I might mention things here or there because I think they might be relevant and people feel compelled to hijack the thread.

This thread is about Brunell. One could accuse you of being a Brunell homer, because that was your stance not so long ago. So how can you call me anything when you are just as guilty?

But again--it's about Brunell. I gave reasons for his failures last year and why I saw disturbing hints that some of that is still present in his game and his mentality.

Analyzing something to predict future results does not make me less of a fan. In fact, normally such breakdowns would be the purview of people who LOVE THE GAME and want to learn as much about it and what goes into the plays on the field as possible.

I rooted last year when Brunell stunk it up for the majority of the year--how would that change?

----jrock--where's the rest of the line?

[No_Pressure]

My original post:

Brunell at least sets his feet right and doesnt look like some scared rabbit darting around the field. I have counted Ramsey taking 18 steps on a 3 step drop when he wasnt under any pressure. 3 steps back then he chopped his feet all around for about 4 seconds before making a bad, off balance throw.

Campbell is the best of the 3, he looked VERY and I mean VERY calm in the pocket, and this will help his accuracy when hes our starter next year (fingers crossed)

Your response:

Yet another falsehood. Sorry, review the tape. Brunell is the one who takes more steps per drop than Ramsey. ramsey appears to take the normal amount of steps in his DROP(chop steps forward is not a BAD thing, you may be confusing the two)

Now I didnt say anything about the Chicago game AT ALL and you ASSUME (remember that word?) that I said something (which I didnt) referring to Chicago. I wasnt talking to you when I posted the first time so I wasnt saying it in rebuttle to anything else.

Ramsey has taken such bad steps, whether you want to confront it or not since your obviously some confused fan deeply in love with a sub-par QB who at the same time dreams of being an NFL analyist, trying to speak as if your some Rhodes Scholar elitist who is above everyone.

Now I can admit when I was confused- by your actions mind you. I said you were lying when obvious we were both speaking of two different instances.

I do, however stand by my statement. I wasnt affected by anyone but myself, sitting alone during mostly the Spurrier era, I began noticing how Ramsey would sometimes rush himself when he wasnt under pressure. Paying more attention I began questioning why he would take so many steps (sometimes go so far as to trip himself for no reason) and why he would tap the ball so often. I am NOT I repeat NOT referring to the Chicago game.

[JimmiJo]

And again, all I did was compare mark with patrick because that's what I had available. I'm talking about BRUNELL here, I might mention things here or there because I think they might be relevant and people feel compelled to hijack the thread.

This thread is about Brunell. One could accuse you of being a Brunell homer, because that was your stance not so long ago. So how can you call me anything when you are just as guilty?

But again--it's about Brunell. I gave reasons for his failures last year and why I saw disturbing hints that some of that is still present in his game and his mentality.

Analyzing something to predict future results does not make me less of a fan. In fact, normally such breakdowns would be the purview of people who LOVE THE GAME and want to learn as much about it and what goes into the plays on the field as possible.

I rooted last year when Brunell stunk it up for the majority of the year--how would that change?

Yes but Ghost you surely and clearly remember me being gracious, predicting that PR would start the opener based on his performance in the Steeler game and NOT hating on Ramsey just because the guy I thought (still think) gives us a better chance to win was not starting. I didn't spend a week looking to pick-apart PR's play.

I called for Brunell to be benched last year. I was also the 1st one on this site to say that he looked like a whole new QB this year, and to conjecture that his arm looks better.

All I'm saying is that enough with it. You were gracious when your guy was the man, be gracious now. This week has shown that none of us PR/Brunell homers are going to convince the other side of our point of view.

[DeaconBlue]

Ghost stop being a PR homer, admit that he has played badly and let's move on. I don't think anyone is suggesting Brunell is the man (although I think he will be better than last year), I think the sense is one of the following:

1) People believe he gives us a better chance for victory because he does not make the butthead mistakes PR does

2) People believe Gibbs knows better than us

In any event the decision has been made and we have a game tomorrow, a big one. What will you, sit and root against Brunell, analyze closely and report on every bad throw/mistake? Or will you be rooting for the 'Skins like the rest of us?

What say you?

I don't think anyones going to actively root against Brunell. I think ghost, like myself, is having a much harder time forgetting just how abysmally horrible Mark was last year. Some of us are skeptical of the "hamstring". I more so because unless I missed something we didnt even find out about it til this year. I am also skeptical because what I saw as I sat in the stands during the game on sunday reminded me eerily of his play last year. Ramsey has problems. I would be stupid to argue otherwise. The first 9 games of last season are seared into my memory. I have never seen it that bad. I hope to never see it that way again.Hell I actually hope Im wrong. Doesnt change the way I see things though.

[Ghost of]

Yes but Ghost you surely and clearly remember me being gracious, predicting that PR would start the opener based on his performance in the Steeler game and NOT hating on Ramsey just because the guy I thought (still think) gives us a better chance to win was not starting. I didn't spend a week looking to pick-apart PR's play.

I called for Brunell to be benched last year. I was also the 1st one on this site to say that he looked like a whole new QB this year, and to conjecture that his arm looks better.

All I'm saying is that enough with it. You were gracious when your guy was the man, be gracious now. This week has shown that none of us PR/Brunell homers are going to convince the other side of our point of view.

But I think you might be missing the point. I like you, we've had civil conversations, so I don't think there's any issue there. What you're missing though is that the thread is about Brunell and something I've seen that is directly linked to many of his bad plays in the past. It's not about convincing

Brunell homers or preaching to the Ramsey choir.

This was a football discussion thread. That's it. Sure, there were other things in there because I'm not an idiot--I will acknowledge the elephant in the room. But the thread is just about breaking down a habit I saw that was detrimental to Mark's performance. If he comes out vs. Dallas and steps up and doesn't show fear of the pocket or rush--then we're straight, I believe.