OK I sleep on it and I get it, Joe's message, No Turn over or its over for you

[boobiemiles]

One of the stories that always impressed me about Joe is one concerning a player he cut. It was a second round guard I beleive that was suppose to have all the talent in the world. If I can remember it right, he blew a play that got Timmy Smith killed in practice. At the end of practice the guy was cut. It straightened everybod up and we went on to win the Superbowl that year. I'm not sure if those are the exact the details, but the moral to the story is consistent. Joe does not like mistakes.

I remember when Joe benches Jay for Doug Williams and there was the same up roar like the one concerning Ramseys and Bruhell. Now I always felt that we had a better chance to win with Ramsey and not Bruhell. But Joe has been right before. My only concern is that maybe at 65 he's lost touch. But I guess it's the same ole' Joe. He's always had little patients for people that cost him ball games. So this switch should have come as no surprise to me.

I guess in a way it benefits our franchise, if they role the dice right. Ramsey can still command a high draft pick. I know there are a few teams that think he can be the real deal. We have examples of QB's that left our franchise and been successful with other teams. But I'm still bitter Ramsey never got a real chance to be comfortable in this system. But Joe seems like he knows what he is doing.

Bottom line to me is Joe makes our team accountable for their actions. He will also have to know that he may be the one that missed, and caused us to loose games this year. But the message is clear, no turn overs, or your gone. I can live with that.

By the way, we have to beat Dallas. Screw game 2, this is at home on Monday night. The world is watching. Time for us to let them know who we are. We got to be Dallas, we just have to. And don't give me that looser talk, "what if we don't"? Well I feel if we don't beat Dallas it's going to be another season of pergatory.

[@DCGoldPants]

Then Mark would have been pulled week 1 against tampa last year, or week 2 against new york.

How about against the bears or ravens? no?

[E-Dog Night]

Good post, and I agree with you. But the one thing that sticks out is that you can't cut someone every time they make a mistake. If you did, you wouldn't have a team halfway through the season. But clearly, some mistakes are bigger than others.

And I don't think Ramsey can command a high draft pick right now. Maybe a 3rd at best.

[stevenaa]

As a coach you have to evaluate the player. Gibbs has seen him enough to form his opinion, regardless of how we feel. Unfortunately, the one area where Ramsey is consistent is in turning the ball over due to dumb decisions. Every QB is going to do this occassionally, but with PR it has been epidemic. Maybe the pressure of the current situation is just too much for him. Maybe a change of scenery where he is working under a coach who picks him will boost his confidence. Whatever the case, he didn't earn Gibbs trust when he had the chance. We can debate the length of time he was given, but in the end that makes no difference.

[arkowi]

I too am cooling on the Ramsey deal. While I was not like some who threw horrible insults at Gibbs, I did feel very upset. I do feel now that Gibbs, like you said, is not going to tolerate the turnovers/mistakes...and I have to get behind that. The cutting of A.Brown really clarified a lot of this to me. I will be OK as long as Gibbs puts the same length leash on Brunell as he put on Ramsey.

[Underwater Ally]

Portis fumbled at at critical time on Sunday. He was just luckey enough to have the ball bounce right back into his chest. What happens to him? Does Betts start Monday night?

[Saqs]

Portis fumbled at at critical time on Sunday. He was just luckey enough to have the ball bounce right back into his chest. What happens to him? Does Betts start Monday night?

Did he fumble in the red zone during pre-season? How about anytime during preseason when Gibbs was stressing taking care of the ball before and after everygame? What about Betts?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

It's not EVERY TIME he makes a mistake, Ramsey has proven since 2005 started (including preseason) that he's more turnover-prone this season...for whatever reason.

You establish habits in practice and practice games...and that's part of Gibbs' decision I'm sure.

[@DCGoldPants]

No, but Brunell has had fumbles cost us a "W" and he started the next week.

Lets stop pretending there is a consistent way that Coach Gibbs treats players who turn it over.

Ramsey could throw an INT in route to a 31-7 win and it would seem a bigger deal than a Brunell fumble that turns into a TD during a 17-10 loss.

[jabronijames]

You guys who are defending Ramsey and saying he got screwed are forgetting something. Throughout the preseason, Coach Gibbs, in his press conferences, mentioned one aspect of the game consistently. That aspect was turnovers. His comments always revolved around eliminating turnovers. If the player can't eliminate turnovers from his play, then the player will be eliminated (or at least benched). I am almost positive, though I cannot confirm, that before the game Coach Gibbs stood up before the team and warned them about turnovers. There would be consequences for turning the ball over. Pay up, Patrick. Pay up, Antonio.

I know that Ramsey has asked to be traded, but Coach is no dummy. If Brunell gets his bell rung, who do you propose will replace him? Ramsey will still take some snaps in practice and he will be a Redskin for the rest of this season. If Ramsey were to leave, we'd be in a very dangerous spot. A 35 year old starter with a 22 year old to back him up. Yikes. Anyway, I am pretty sure that Coach Gibbs made the right decision and will continue to do so. Let's go and get some touchdowns against Dallas. I hate those guys!

[Prosperity]

No, but Brunell has had fumbles cost us a "W" and he started the next week.

Lets stop pretending there is a consistent way that Coach Gibbs treats players who turn it over.

Ramsey could throw an INT in route to a 31-7 win and it would seem a bigger deal than a Brunell fumble that turns into a TD during a 17-10 loss.

shhhh you forgot drink the coolaid

[jimster]

No, but Brunell has had fumbles cost us a "W" and he started the next week.

Lets stop pretending there is a consistent way that Coach Gibbs treats players who turn it over.

Ramsey could throw an INT in route to a 31-7 win and it would seem a bigger deal than a Brunell fumble that turns into a TD during a 17-10 loss.

Then Mark would have been pulled week 1 against tampa last year, or week 2 against new york.

How about against the bears or ravens? no?

Brunell lost a couple fumbles last year, but they weren't all entirely his fault - Tampa, Raymer stepped on his foot causing him to fall during the exchange to Portis. Ravens, Betts missed his block exposing his blindside.

On the other hand Ramsey has been worked with all off-season, training camp and pre-season and is still doing the same things. He still stares down his receivers, he still holds onto the ball too long and stands still in the pocket, he still throws into a crowd instead of checking down or throwing away. - These are all coachable things.

Are we going to be frustrated sometimes when Brunell doesn't see anyone open and throws it away? Yes, but would we rather have it turned over instead? I wouldn't.

Am I disappointed? Yes, but I'm more disappointed that Ramsey isn't getting better. - People keep saying he didn't get a chance. He did get a chance. He got nine months of coaching and didn't improve. He didn't pick up where he left off last year.

Gibbs has even said that he wants someone to just "take control of the job".

I trust in the decision.

[redskin81]

Then Mark would have been pulled week 1 against tampa last year, or week 2 against new york.

How about against the bears or ravens? no?

He screwed himself. He was told over and over and over again if its not there throw it AWAY.

[red zone]

Then Mark would have been pulled week 1 against tampa last year, or week 2 against new york.

How about against the bears or ravens? no?

Bufford - Your sig pic should read "Screwed-Up" vice "Screwed." Pat just has waaay to much trouble not turning the ball over. Sorry bro, but Coach Gibbs agrees with me and he's the HMFIC.

[ross3909]

Play Ramsey and risk him throwing the game away on turnovers or play Brunell and risk limiting our passing game to dink and dunks and 8 man fronts...these decisions are way too hard, lets just hire someone who has been successful at this before and let him make the call. But where are you going to find an extremely smart Hall of Fame head coach with a offensive mind who has won multiple Superbowls at this hour???

[belyeadm]

Throughout the first quarter last sunday I was standing in my seat giving high fives to everyone in the crowd, drinking beers and having a heck of a good time. Ramsey completed FOUR third and longs and it was amazing to actually see what a long pass looked like from my nose bleed seats.

Enter Brunell.

Remainder of the game I sat and watched this boring boring game. The entire section SAT whenever we were on the offense. People were leaving to go get beers or use the bathroom as soon as the offense got the ball. It is ridiculous.

I can not justify paying the money I do for season tickets to watch Brunell throw his 3 yard TE outs and his check down 340 dump passes to the running back in the flats. IT IS AWFUL.

I want Ramsey or Campbell back and would even be happy for Gus. Or Sage. OR HEATH SHULER. Anyone other than Brunell who makes Kyle Boller look like a pro bowler.

[AlexRS]

whatever man... I dont care how boring Brunell looks, as long as we win. I'll be perfectly happy if we get the "most boring team to win a SuperBowl" label.

[red zone]

Portis fumbled at at critical time on Sunday. He was just luckey enough to have the ball bounce right back into his chest. What happens to him? Does Betts start Monday night?

It's this kind of thinking that helps me understand that whole Florida voting SNAFU. :doh:

Patrick has picked up the horrible habit of staring down receivers and then just heaving it. To his credit, Gibbs let Ramsey off the hook for the pick he threw to Dawkins in the Eagle game last year. We were well with in field goal range with time outs left and it was first down! Ramsey heaved that sh*t into triple coverage. On first down!! :doh: Cooley never even looked, because it never crossed his mind PR would try to fit a pass in there. Sadly, Patrick has learned not one d*mn thing since. He's has turned into nothing but a thrower. He's on the bench where hopefully he will learn and improve. In the meantime, Brunell gives us the best chance to win.

As for Portis? Dude, get real. K?

[ntotoro]

Brunell lost a couple fumbles last year, but they weren't all entirely his fault - Tampa, Raymer stepped on his foot causing him to fall during the exchange to Portis. Ravens, Betts missed his block exposing his blindside.

You're a liar!!! Stop covering for other people's mistakes and shortcomings!!!

It was Friedman who stepped on Brunell, not Raymer...

[Streater101]

No, but Brunell has had fumbles cost us a "W" and he started the next week.

Lets stop pretending there is a consistent way that Coach Gibbs treats players who turn it over.

Ramsey could throw an INT in route to a 31-7 win and it would seem a bigger deal than a Brunell fumble that turns into a TD during a 17-10 loss.

Its said, but its true. Although I'm alot calmer about the situation now then I was a few days earlier.

[azmodeus13]

Combs - preseason - fumbles - gone

Brown - Fumbles - gone

Ramsey - picks and fumbles - gone

We saw several people who missed a lot of catches hit the road

Missed tackles? They weren't tolerated and those folks are gone.

I believe if Brunell doesn't get it done, Gibbs will make a move to either Ramsey or Campbell.

I still have to know what pics Jimoh has of Williams and what illegal actions they show Williams doing - that is one wasted jersey.

[KevinMac]

Then Mark would have been pulled week 1 against tampa last year, or week 2 against new york.

How about against the bears or ravens? no?

Don't you think that the fact that the alternative to Brunell was Patrick Ramsey had something to do with how long Gibbs stuck with Mark?

[TLusby]

Remainder of the game I sat and watched this boring boring game. The entire section SAT whenever we were on the offense. People were leaving to go get beers or use the bathroom as soon as the offense got the ball. It is ridiculous.

Welcome to Football 101! The game was in a different situation. Our running game was working and we needed to run the clock out and force the Bears to use all of their time outs. Why do you think Gibbs ran the ball on that 3rd and 6 play with under 2:00 minutes. He wanted the Bears to waste their last time out and left it to the Defense (who shut them out all day) to finish the game off. We could have had Joe Montana and we still would have played "boring" football.

[AJ_Skins]

One of the stories that always impressed me about Joe is one concerning a player he cut. It was a second round guard I beleive that was suppose to have all the talent in the world. If I can remember it right, he blew a play that got Timmy Smith killed in practice. At the end of practice the guy was cut. It straightened everybod up and we went on to win the Superbowl that year. I'm not sure if those are the exact the details, but the moral to the story is consistent. Joe does not like mistakes.

I remember when Joe benches Jay for Doug Williams and there was the same up roar like the one concerning Ramseys and Bruhell. Now I always felt that we had a better chance to win with Ramsey and not Bruhell. But Joe has been right before. My only concern is that maybe at 65 he's lost touch. But I guess it's the same ole' Joe. He's always had little patients for people that cost him ball games. So this switch should have come as no surprise to me.

I'll buy this explanation if he pulls Brunell for doing the same things. He didn't do it last year, when Brunell performed far worse than Ramsey ever has in all of his time in a Redskins uniform, much less last year, when he clearly played better than Brunell.

I guess in a way it benefits our franchise, if they role the dice right. Ramsey can still command a high draft pick. I know there are a few teams that think he can be the real deal. We have examples of QB's that left our franchise and been successful with other teams. But I'm still bitter Ramsey never got a real chance to be comfortable in this system. But Joe seems like he knows what he is doing.

If it ends up being a situation where it becomes very clear that Ramsey will be released whether we find a trade or not, what we can get for him will be diminished. Even in the best case scenario, I think we would be lucky to get a third round pick considering how severely he's been denegrated by Gibbs. If Gibbs thinks Ramsey is a piece of garbage, then other teams are not going to pay more than a garbage price, even if they still think he has upside.

Bottom line to me is Joe makes our team accountable for their actions. He will also have to know that he may be the one that missed, and caused us to loose games this year. But the message is clear, no turn overs, or your gone. I can live with that.

By the way, we have to beat Dallas. Screw game 2, this is at home on Monday night. The world is watching. Time for us to let them know who we are. We got to be Dallas, we just have to. And don't give me that looser talk, "what if we don't"? Well I feel if we don't beat Dallas it's going to be another season of pergatory.

What we have needed going back to the start of last year is a passing game that can threaten opposing defenses when they crowd the line to stop Portis/Betts. Despite his one bad throw, we had that with Ramsey in the game against Chicago. If Brunell can't do it, Gibbs has thrown away everything he claimed he was trying to do in the offseason. If that happens and Gibbs doesn't go back to Ramsey, we will have the same outcome we had last year, and on top of it Gibbs will have thrown away most of his credibility as a head coach in the present-day NFL.

[freakofthesouth]

I would say that most of the turnovers this presaeason and on Sunday were directly Ramsey's fault. He made some critical errors this preseason that we were all hoping would get better. Unfortunately, they did not.

Enter Mark Brunell, who already has a rep from last year, w/ some early season fumbles, and is known for his overly-conservative style of play. I have always felt the heat that Brunell took for last season was ill-placed, and rather ignorant...I was even too harsh on him.

Gibbs mentioned that he belives Mark now has a better team to work w/. That said, Brunell was accurate on 57% of his passes against the Bears, for 70 yards. Boring? Yes. Let's not discount the one gamebreaking throw that he had to Santana- and Santana was interfered w/. That was a great throw, and had Moss caught it, we can count six.

My guess is the playcalling was ultra-conservative, considering all that had happened on Sunday- Ramsey fumbles twice (losing one), throws a pic, and gets the snot knocked out of him. Moreover, Brunell hasn;t taken first string snaps in awhile. So what do you do? You trim your gamplan, and lick your wounds, hopefully @ 1-0. That's exactly how it played out for us, best case scenario given the circumstances, like it or not.

Again, don't put last year's offensive struggles on the shoulders of Brunell. Sure, it looks like it's his fault that we were bad last year, but it really wasn't. Make no mistake, Santana Moss is explosive, and he has shown that so far as a Redskin. Secondaries must respect him, and that will give Portis room. If they do not, Brunell can get him the ball and stretch the field. He will just be waiting for the right time.

Also, consider the fact that the Bears have a good defense that stifled some of our drives. Any way you cut it, we had nearly double the offensive output as the Bears, and the reason the game was close were the turnovers. Take away the turnovers, and we win convincingly. To take away the turnovers, you remove those who are accountable.

I am looking for a solid offensive outing from our team in a big game next week, turnover-free.

edit: I wated to add this little note: Ramsey was in for 3 series, and threw 11 passes. Brunell was in for the remainder of the game, and only threw three more total passes...14. Clearly, we simply wanted to run the ball to get the close win.