Best LB Corps, NFC East

[Art]

Originally posted by budski

WB and Art,

How you guys can retain these statistics on players is beyond me.

I just go on memory of the games.

Bud, you've made a mistake.

Only I actually know the stats and insist on thinking they are part of the conversation. WB simply likes to pretend they are meaningless in any situation they don't favor the guy he says is better by the criteria that in all ways but those you can measure he is, therefore, it must be true.

You give WB too much credit to assume he actually pays attention. He clearly doesn't given this debate.

[Westbrook36]

Originally posted by Art

Bud, you've made a mistake.

Only I actually know the stats and insist on thinking they are part of the conversation. WB simply likes to pretend they are meaningless in any situation they don't favor the guy he says is better by the criteria that in all ways but those you can measure he is, therefore, it must be true.

You give WB too much credit to assume he actually pays attention. He clearly doesn't given this debate.

Should I post a list of linebackers playing LA's position each year he was in the league with better "stats" then him and then put my hands over ears and claim how much better they are?

Save the year the Skins couldn't muster production from your DLine and he was smartly sent to the QB and he registered 10 sacks, I see nothing from Arrington's stats which stand out or even register him anything other than average.

LA has been living off of that season changing INT and a few big hits his entire career. Too bad it's been several years since they occured and guys like me are waiting around for the production to match the talent.

At the end of a close game, LA is more likely to commit a penalty or be caught out of position then he is to make the game-changing play. We all know this. Teams don't scheme away from Arrington.....there is no need to. He'll scheme himself away from you eventually.

[jrockster21]

Originally posted by OrangeSkin

I agree with Art, the combination of Washington and Arrington can't be touched in the division. They more than make up for our lack of a proven commodity in the middle.

Throw in a healthy Barrow, and you're talking about possibly the best unit in the league, not just the NFC East!

[illone]

The Skins had the BEST defense in the entire NFC last season. This includes the NFC East for those idiots who can't figure it out:doh: This was without Arrington for most of the season:doh:

This topic is embarassing.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

You people are such homers. I understand though, believe me I do. Starting with the offseason where we got the reigning defensive player of the year (Dana Stubblefield) and former #1 overall pick Big Daddy Wilkinson to shore up of D-line I have said that "I think the Skins are going to be pretty good this year." So before every season started for the past 10 years I have hyped the Skins and their chances, and every year I am let down and made to look like a complete and total douche bag. This year wouldn't have been any different but then they went and lost Smoot, a true Redskion and by far my favorite player, and because they didn't want to pay him a million more then Springs makes, who he's younger then and better then. Ahhhh

Sorry for the fuming tirade, back to the point ...

How you can rant and rave about how someone isn't saying that the Skins have the best LB corps in the division is beyond me. Let's take off the burgundy and gold tinted glasses and be objective for a moment.

Washington is an all-pro. He is the best LB, inside or outside, in the division and he is a top 5 OLB in the league. I will NOT take anything away from him, I love his game. GRADE: A

THe middle linebacker position is a complete debacle. This is the worst offseason I can ever remember the Skins having. To lose Smoot broke my heart and my spirit. To lose Pierce is inexcusable, and to a division rival, God help us all. Barrow has shown nothing. To me this is the weakest position not just on D but on the team, except maybe WR. GRADE: F

Now to the wildcard. Lavar, oh Lavar. What to think of Lavar. He is a monster among men. He is truly a beast. He is also overrated, IMHO. I just don't think that he has lived up to his supposed vast potential. To give him all the props in the world doesn't make sense. I mean, who knows. Maybe he can't recover from his injury. Maybe he was never really that good to begin with. Right now, and this is generous IMO, I have to give the pos a C. I think he has the ability to make it an A but I've heard that Lavar might not even be ready for the start of the regular season so it can just as easily drop to a D. GRADE: C

Going by the grade system of A=4, B=3, C=2, D=1, F=0, the Skins have a cumulative grade of 2 for their LB corps, as far as the starters go.

I haven't worked out the grades for the Iggles, Cowpukes, and Giant(homos) and honestly I haven't watched enough of their games to really give an accurate and fair assessment of what a proper grade would be. I'm not going to rank the Skins or any other team. The only conclusion that I can really come to is that the Skins grade of 2 isn't that good and it definitely doesn't appear to put them ahead of all of the other teams in the division.

Stop being homers, please.

Not a sermon, just a thought.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

That was an assessment of the talent of their starting linebackers, not an assessment of their schemes, of their depth, or of their defense as a whole.

[AJWatson3]

well we have the best LB in the division in Marcus Washington... add a healthy Arrington and you could put any of our potential starters in the middle to make the best group.

the Giants best LB is BY FAR Pierce.

not too impressed with the Eagles guys.

big fan of Dat Nguyen, he is vastly under-rated. and Parcells doesn't even like his breed of LB, small, quick, tough...

[jrockster21]

Originally posted by BornASkinsFan83

THe middle linebacker position is a complete debacle. This is the worst offseason I can ever remember the Skins having. To lose Smoot broke my heart and my spirit. To lose Pierce is inexcusable, and to a division rival, God help us all. Barrow has shown nothing. To me this is the weakest position not just on D but on the team, except maybe WR. GRADE: F

Uhhh, okay dude. Barrow hasn't shown anything...he only had 170+ tackles two years ago. Injuries happen, and he looks to be progressing nicely. A healthy Barrow and we've got the best MLB in the division by far. Not to mention Lamar Marshall, who filled in very well for Arrington last season. Don't forget Holdman or Clifton Smith, either. To call the Mike position a complete debacle is not taking off the B&G glasses, its taking off the common sense glasses and putting on the chicken-little glasses. Get a clue, man. The defense and the linebacker position in particular are one thing that Skins fans can be really excited about this year! Not to say the offense will be bad, but the defense will be good again for sure.

Now to the wildcard. Lavar, oh Lavar. What to think of Lavar. He is a monster among men. He is truly a beast. He is also overrated, IMHO. I just don't think that he has lived up to his supposed vast potential. To give him all the props in the world doesn't make sense. I mean, who knows. Maybe he can't recover from his injury. Maybe he was never really that good to begin with. Right now, and this is generous IMO, I have to give the pos a C. I think he has the ability to make it an A but I've heard that Lavar might not even be ready for the start of the regular season so it can just as easily drop to a D. GRADE: C

Why? Assuming Lavar misses the first couple games, why would you be unhappy with Marshall or Holdman there? Marshall played there all last season, and played admirably. Holdman has played all three LB positions, and is a solid backup.

If LA is healthy, the weakside is his natural position. With him in the lineup, the LB core is one of the top in the league, no doubt. Think about it this way; if Gregg Williams can take whodats and make them into solid, contributing players, what do you think he's going to be able to do with a talent like Lavar??

Going by the grade system of A=4, B=3, C=2, D=1, F=0, the Skins have a cumulative grade of 2 for their LB corps, as far as the starters go.

I haven't worked out the grades for the Iggles, Cowpukes, and Giant(homos) and honestly I haven't watched enough of their games to really give an accurate and fair assessment of what a proper grade would be. I'm not going to rank the Skins or any other team. The only conclusion that I can really come to is that the Skins grade of 2 isn't that good and it definitely doesn't appear to put them ahead of all of the other teams in the division.

Stop being homers, please.

Not a sermon, just a thought.

Ahhh...last time I checked, 4 + 2 = 6....

[Art]

Born,

You need to realize, the inability of others to make inane statements in the form of opinion as you have here is not a sign of being a "homer" on the part of others. It's a sign of some odd disconnect with reality on your part, and granting the complete benefit of the doubt to you that you ARE, indeed, a fan of the team, it might be something for you to look at to improve your knowledge of it and those teams around it, as, here, you're simply out of your mind.

[[[ghost]]]

Originally posted by Art

WB,

You're a strange bird.

Let's just see. Arrington and Emmons played the same position the last three years. Arrington was more productive from a tackle standpoint than Emmons in 2002 and 2003. Arrington had more passes defensed in both years. He forced more fumbles in both years. He recovered more fumbles in both years. He had more sacks in both years.

So, in the year he was hurt and playing a different position, Emmons has surpassed his three-year production and therefore it can not be argued Emmons has played better than Arrington over the last three years?

You're a lunatic, I'll give you that. In absolutely no measurable way is Emmons even comparable to Arrington. Emmons is largely a one dimensional player. He's not a bad player, but, he's in a whole different league as compared to Arrington and Arrington's production. Little league maybe .

So, not only have I proven this is not a fact, but, I wonder how you can brand such a clear non-fact one and think you'll get away with it here. Of course you be ridiculed for this type of stupidity. Arrington is NOT as good as his talent may allow him to be one day. But, he's still as productive and dominating as any player is.

Man, sometimes you are like a pitcher at the homerun derby. You just can't help serving up the easy ones.

:point2sky

you rule

[THEHEREAFTER]

I just realized that Philly lost Derrik Burgess..... that guy is an animal! I really like his game.

[Westbrook36]

Originally posted by THEHEREAFTER

I just realized that Philly lost Derrik Burgess..... that guy is an animal! I really like his game.

Are you basing that off of the NFC Champ Game where he harrassed Vick all game after switching sides with Kearse?

I just don't see how you could determine that unless that was your only barometer. He missed the two seasons prior to this one and had a handful of sacks as a starter this year.

He simply isn't the player Kalu is. Granted, it hurts for depth reasons but Oakland gave him way too much money.

[Westbrook36]

Originally posted by [[ghost]]

:point2sky

you rule

I will give Art one thing. He certainly is good at expressing things in a manner which calms the collective spirit of the good posters of www.extremeskins.com.

Art is always right. Art always backs the Redskins and thinks their management, from owner down, is second to none. Their talent level is on par with the very best teams in the league. The Redskins don't win many games. Sure, something doesn't add up when you look at it like that but I'm sure a few more lines from him could explain that away.

He speaks in short stimulating sentences, the classic example of the skills of propaganda.

[THEHEREAFTER]

Originally posted by Westbrook36

I will give Art one thing. He certainly is good at expressing things in a manner which calms the collective spirit of the good posters of www.extremeskins.com.

Art is always right. Art always backs the Redskins and thinks their management, from owner down, is second to none. Their talent level is on par with the very best teams in the league. The Redskins don't win many games. Sure, something doesn't add up when you look at it like that but I'm sure a few more lines from him could explain that away.

He speaks in short stimulating sentences, the classic example of the skills of propaganda.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

The guy is incredible. I've said before that I think he could sell water to a whale. That's not a diss Art so please don't come after me this time

[THEHEREAFTER]

Originally posted by Westbrook36

Are you basing that off of the NFC Champ Game where he harrassed Vick all game after switching sides with Kearse?

I just don't see how you could determine that unless that was your only barometer. He missed the two seasons prior to this one and had a handful of sacks as a starter this year.

He simply isn't the player Kalu is. Granted, it hurts for depth reasons but Oakland gave him way too much money.

WB36 that comment wasn't to sway the debate one way or another..... just an observation. That guy was a tremendous asset to your team though. The way he harassed Vick in the championship game showed unbelievable athleticism.

[Taylor Made]

Originally posted by BornASkinsFan83

You people are such homers. I understand though, believe me I do. Starting with the offseason where we got the reigning defensive player of the year (Dana Stubblefield) and former #1 overall pick Big Daddy Wilkinson to shore up of D-line I have said that "I think the Skins are going to be pretty good this year." So before every season started for the past 10 years I have hyped the Skins and their chances, and every year I am let down and made to look like a complete and total douche bag. This year wouldn't have been any different but then they went and lost Smoot, a true Redskion and by far my favorite player, and because they didn't want to pay him a million more then Springs makes, who he's younger then and better then. Ahhhh

Sorry for the fuming tirade, back to the point ...

How you can rant and rave about how someone isn't saying that the Skins have the best LB corps in the division is beyond me. Let's take off the burgundy and gold tinted glasses and be objective for a moment.

Washington is an all-pro. He is the best LB, inside or outside, in the division and he is a top 5 OLB in the league. I will NOT take anything away from him, I love his game. GRADE: A

THe middle linebacker position is a complete debacle. This is the worst offseason I can ever remember the Skins having. To lose Smoot broke my heart and my spirit. To lose Pierce is inexcusable, and to a division rival, God help us all. Barrow has shown nothing. To me this is the weakest position not just on D but on the team, except maybe WR. GRADE: F

Now to the wildcard. Lavar, oh Lavar. What to think of Lavar. He is a monster among men. He is truly a beast. He is also overrated, IMHO. I just don't think that he has lived up to his supposed vast potential. To give him all the props in the world doesn't make sense. I mean, who knows. Maybe he can't recover from his injury. Maybe he was never really that good to begin with. Right now, and this is generous IMO, I have to give the pos a C. I think he has the ability to make it an A but I've heard that Lavar might not even be ready for the start of the regular season so it can just as easily drop to a D. GRADE: C

Going by the grade system of A=4, B=3, C=2, D=1, F=0, the Skins have a cumulative grade of 2 for their LB corps, as far as the starters go.

I haven't worked out the grades for the Iggles, Cowpukes, and Giant(homos) and honestly I haven't watched enough of their games to really give an accurate and fair assessment of what a proper grade would be. I'm not going to rank the Skins or any other team. The only conclusion that I can really come to is that the Skins grade of 2 isn't that good and it definitely doesn't appear to put them ahead of all of the other teams in the division.

Stop being homers, please.

Not a sermon, just a thought.

You are lecturing people on not being homers and then you state that Smoot is better than Springs. Funny that you state Smoot is your favorite player. You do know what a homer is, right? If you are giving LaVar a C then no other OLB will get higher than a C because Washington and Arrington are 1-2 in the division with OLB.

[Taylor Made]

Originally posted by Westbrook36

You know, I did some thinking last night and I am thinking the Skins probably are a step ahead of the Eagles, although I still put the Giants starting unit ahead.....don't know why noone thinks they are any good when all three are above average.

In your zeal to make points and totally discredit others, you just make ridiculous assertations, Arthur. Seriously, the statement above is complete garbage.

I love how because you have tons of players at a position, it's considered "fantastic depth". For every McCune or Marshall you can throw out, I can just as easily throw out McCoy and Adams.

Do we really know how rookies or veterans coming off of serious injuries are going to perform to reasonably give them value as depth?

You also fall into the trap of looking at talent on paper as part of your rankings. I'm going to get bashed heartedly but Emmons has played better than Arrington over the last 3 years and yes, I know Arrington was hurt last year. This is a fact that can't even be argued but I'm sure I'll be ridiculed for even suggesting it.

Since when did Nick Greisen become LT?

[Walking Deadman]

Originally posted by Westbrook36

Art is always right.

Art,

I think that should be added to your sig.

"Art is always right."- WB36

[Art]

Originally posted by Westbrook36

I will give Art one thing. He certainly is good at expressing things in a manner which calms the collective spirit of the good posters of www.extremeskins.com.

Art is always right. Art always backs the Redskins and thinks their management, from owner down, is second to none. Their talent level is on par with the very best teams in the league. The Redskins don't win many games. Sure, something doesn't add up when you look at it like that but I'm sure a few more lines from him could explain that away.

He speaks in short stimulating sentences, the classic example of the skills of propaganda.

Funny thing is, I bet I can find a post from you stating I don't put the blinders on as much as most people think. Except, that appears, when I'm wise enough to disagree with you. Then I do put the blinders on.

Such is the cry of the incorrect. "Homer, homer, evermore."

Twits. I swear.

[Westbrook36]

Originally posted by Art

Funny thing is, I bet I can find a post from you stating I don't put the blinders on as much as most people think. Except, that appears, when I'm wise enough to disagree with you. Then I do put the blinders on.

Such is the cry of the incorrect. "Homer, homer, evermore."

Twits. I swear.

Ah, Art, just having a little fun. If I didn't like you, I wouldn't joke around with you.....even though we honestly do disagree on the current subject.

All I was saying is sometimes I'll read your take on something and think to myself "Hey, the Skins are pretty damned good. I should go out and get a Portis Jersey" before I snap out of it.

[flexxskins]

Originally posted by Westbrook36

Redskins: Arrington, Barrow/McCune/Barnes?, Washington

Giants: Emmons, Pierce, Griesen

Eagles: Dhani Jones, Trotter, Simoneau/McCoy/Adams

Cowboys: James, Ngyuen, Shanle/Thorton/Singleton?

This is a tough one to rate. I think each squad has potential question marks with players coming back from injury, key players departing, weak links, etc.

1-4, if I had to rate them:

1. Giants

2. Eagles

3. Skins

4. Cowboys

What say you?

Hhhhmmm, three Pro-Bowl linebackers and we are ranked 3rd on your chart. No respect. Thats just hatin son.

[Kevin101]

Pierce=System LB

[Beaudry]

Originally posted by flexxskins

Hhhhmmm, three Pro-Bowl linebackers and we are ranked 3rd on your chart. No respect. Thats just hatin son.

I must have watched a different ProBowl last February. I remember seeing Washington in the game, but who are these other 2 ProBowl linebackers you mention?

[Art]

Originally posted by Beaudry

I must have watched a different ProBowl last February. I remember seeing Washington in the game, but who are these other 2 ProBowl linebackers you mention?

I think he may mean Barrow and Arrington who have been Pro Bowl linebackers as well, but that's just a guess.

[Number5]

Originally posted by Skindrodamus

.

And before the Eagles finally got Trotter in shape and off special teams last year, they were one of the worst in the league against the run, but Johnson is the second best D Coordinator in the Division, so they are 2nd.

This got me laughing. Folks always talk about J.J. being the second best in the division. Let's put it this way, J.J. schemes may give up yards, but not points.

So let me ask a question, if he gave up the 2nd least amount of points in the NFL.....is he still number 2 in the division?

I don't know, but I see a whole lotta homers and not enough realists!