Best LB Corps, NFC East

[THEHEREAFTER]

Originally posted by flashback

If you're curious about the Cowboys LBs, read on...

Nguyen will definitely start inside, Ware will definitely start outside, but after that it gets a little hazy.

Singleton will be fighting to keep his OLB job, but I don't think he's what Parcells has in mind as 3-4 OLB. I guess I have to say something nice about him, so I'll call him a "savvy veteran."

Bradie James is a talented guy, big (6'2", 240), fast and a hitter, but he has to stop blowing reads in his 3rd season. Could play inside or outside, but probably best suited to ILB in the 3-4.

Shanle is a big boy, too, (6'2", 245) who isn't as athletic as James, but was very productive when given a chance last year. Definitely an ILB candidate.

Kevin Burnett is the rookie from Tennessee the Cowboys picked in the 2nd round this year. Played the weak-side in college, could play inside or outside. Not a great pass-rusher, but a team leader and very productive.

Kalen Thornton is a guy I'm personally pretty excited about. He's a DE/OLB tweener from Texas. He was really impressive in the preseason last year, but didn't get many chances in the regular season. Could push for a starting OLB spot or backup Ware.

Eric Ogbogu, from the Under Armor commercials, is trying to convert to OLB also.

There are a couple more camp fodder/special teams guys, but I don't think they enter into the evaluation.

I think its definitely too early to rank them. We won't have a good idea who's going to play where, and in which defense until we're well into the preseason.

Thanks for @least putting out our potential four starters. Burnett and Ware weren't even mentioned in the original post. The Cowboys have too many rooks and a new scheme so I wouldn't rank them high yet. I think the rankings may look a bit different @ the end of the season.

[herrmag]

Originally posted by THEHEREAFTER

Thanks for @least putting out our potential four starters. Burnett and Ware weren't even mentioned in the original post. The Cowboys have too many rooks and a new scheme so I wouldn't rank them high yet. I think the rankings may look a bit different @ the end of the season.

You're right. The skins will obviously be number 1 then!

[jtyler42]

Skins

Eagles

Giants

Cowboys

[Taylor Made]

I don't see how you can think the Giants LB's are better than the Skins.

Arrington >>> Emmons

Barrow/Holdman <<< Pierce

Washington >>> Griesen

[Goaldeje]

Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin

Wait, the Skins LBs are the spear of the Redskins defense, they have incredible physical gifts and/or are football-intelligent and were on the best D in the conference by far.

And you rate them THIRD in a DIVISION?

Marcus Washington is better than any other LB in the division(putting aside guys coming off of injury)

Lavar, injury or no, has big-play capacity bigger than anyone else in the division.

And we're not even covering the depth players like Campbell, etc

Exactly. Our best defense in the conference was w/out the most physically gifted LB in the division last year. And our MLB was not the projected starter. Pierce is gone, but Williams has shown an amazing propensity to plug holes incredibly well. Actually, I would argue that Williams alone makes this question easy to answer. Skins at the top.

[Westbrook36]

Originally posted by Art

With a healthy Arrington the Redskins have the best linebacking group by a huge margin to go with fantastic depth. It's not even close. This is such a clear margin it shouldn't have to be asked.

Washington has the top two linebackers in the division. Arrington may well be "overrated" but, he produces in a way few can match at the strongside backer spot, and no one has his ability.

Is he healthy? How do we know this? Can he withstand the rigors of an NFL season on, what, twice operated knees now? You just can't say the name "Arrington" and assume that is a rock solid position destined for greatness.

I tried to take all things into consideration when making my rankings. I honestly had to flip a coin for the Eagles/Skins....could have went either way. Jones is above average and Trotter plays exceptional in JJ's system.

[herrmag]

Originally posted by Westbrook36

Is he healthy? How do we know this? Can he withstand the rigors of an NFL season on, what, twice operated knees now? You just can't say the name "Arrington" and assume that is a rock solid position destined for greatness.

I tried to take all things into consideration when making my rankings. I honestly had to flip a coin for the Eagles/Skins....could have went either way. Jones is above average and Trotter plays exceptional in JJ's system.

Normally, I'd be more articulate. But it's late. Go to hell Eagles fan....

[Major Harris]

Originally posted by Art

With a healthy Arrington the Redskins have the best linebacking group by a huge margin to go with fantastic depth. It's not even close. This is such a clear margin it shouldn't have to be asked.

Washington has the top two linebackers in the division. Arrington may well be "overrated" but, he produces in a way few can match at the strongside backer spot, and no one has his ability.

isn't lavar supposed to move to the weakside?

he's always been playing out of position at the strongside, and i've been excited to see him blow things up without have to constantly worry about tight ends.

wb, the 'skins at 3 is ridiculous, with or with out arrington.

[jpgirth]

Originally posted by Westbrook36

Is he healthy? How do we know this? Can he withstand the rigors of an NFL season on, what, twice operated knees now? You just can't say the name "Arrington" and assume that is a rock solid position destined for greatness.

I tried to take all things into consideration when making my rankings. I honestly had to flip a coin for the Eagles/Skins....could have went either way. Jones is above average and Trotter plays exceptional in JJ's system.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[RDSKNfaithfull]

Originally posted by Art

With a healthy Arrington the Redskins have the best linebacking group by a huge margin to go with fantastic depth. It's not even close. This is such a clear margin it shouldn't have to be asked.

Washington has the top two linebackers in the division. Arrington may well be "overrated" but, he produces in a way few can match at the strongside backer spot, and no one has his ability.

Very True but Arrignton is better suited for Weakside with Washington on the Strong side;)

[budski]

Yam Yam Yam.

Redskins have the best LB's everyone knows it, just wont admit it,

and that was last year.

Now add into the mix Lavar, Barrow, and the rest you'll be able to see the fear in the QBs eyes from your living room.

[Art]

Originally posted by Westbrook36

Is he healthy? How do we know this? Can he withstand the rigors of an NFL season on, what, twice operated knees now? You just can't say the name "Arrington" and assume that is a rock solid position destined for greatness.

I tried to take all things into consideration when making my rankings. I honestly had to flip a coin for the Eagles/Skins....could have went either way. Jones is above average and Trotter plays exceptional in JJ's system.

WB,

If Arrington doesn't play a down, the Redskins STILL have the best overall linebacking group, though it is closer. In any case, with Arrington back, it's a blowout. You can't possibly tell others you took EVERYTHING into account when doing your rankings by basically saying you don't factor the possibilty of Arrington being available.

He's had two relatively minor surgeries. Remember, he didn't have a torn tendon or anything of the sort, right? He had a scope, a setback, another scope. Players get that sort of thing done all the time.

In three of his four seasons Jones has been terrible, below average and average with one very good year. You call him above average. That's the makings of a person unable to take off the blinders my friend.

Trotter is a beast in your system, no doubt about that. But, the linebacking group isn't even CLOSE whether you are talking depth or starters. Things can change, there's no doubt about that, but, you can't even make a position that seems reasonable here to make it even close.

[Chachie]

1.Eags

2.Skins

3.G-Men

4.Boys

[G-Prime]

Originally posted by Art

With a healthy Arrington the Redskins have the best linebacking group by a huge margin to go with fantastic depth. It's not even close. This is such a clear margin it shouldn't have to be asked.

Washington has the top two linebackers in the division. Arrington may well be "overrated" but, he produces in a way few can match at the strongside backer spot, and no one has his ability.

:point2sky

Well said

[RunRiggoRun]

Originally posted by Taylor Made

I don't see how you can think the Giants LB's are better than the Skins.

Arrington >>> Emmons

Barrow/Holdman <<< Pierce

Washington >>> Griesen

But please do not sleep on Marshall getting that spot.

[Warhead36]

Are you kidding me? The Redskins not only have the best LB corps in the NFC East, they have one of the best LB corps in the entire league.

[[[ghost]]]

Originally posted by HeHateMe

When putting this debate out there, try getting Dallas' linebackers right.

:laugh:

skins

iggles

giants

cowpukes

[Westbrook36]

Originally posted by Art

WB,

If Arrington doesn't play a down, the Redskins STILL have the best overall linebacking group, though it is closer.

You know, I did some thinking last night and I am thinking the Skins probably are a step ahead of the Eagles, although I still put the Giants starting unit ahead.....don't know why noone thinks they are any good when all three are above average.

In your zeal to make points and totally discredit others, you just make ridiculous assertations, Arthur. Seriously, the statement above is complete garbage.

I love how because you have tons of players at a position, it's considered "fantastic depth". For every McCune or Marshall you can throw out, I can just as easily throw out McCoy and Adams.

Do we really know how rookies or veterans coming off of serious injuries are going to perform to reasonably give them value as depth?

You also fall into the trap of looking at talent on paper as part of your rankings. I'm going to get bashed heartedly but Emmons has played better than Arrington over the last 3 years and yes, I know Arrington was hurt last year. This is a fact that can't even be argued but I'm sure I'll be ridiculed for even suggesting it.

[Art]

WB,

You're a strange bird.

Let's just see. Arrington and Emmons played the same position the last three years. Arrington was more productive from a tackle standpoint than Emmons in 2002 and 2003. Arrington had more passes defensed in both years. He forced more fumbles in both years. He recovered more fumbles in both years. He had more sacks in both years.

So, in the year he was hurt and playing a different position, Emmons has surpassed his three-year production and therefore it can not be argued Emmons has played better than Arrington over the last three years?

You're a lunatic, I'll give you that. In absolutely no measurable way is Emmons even comparable to Arrington. Emmons is largely a one dimensional player. He's not a bad player, but, he's in a whole different league as compared to Arrington and Arrington's production. Little league maybe .

So, not only have I proven this is not a fact, but, I wonder how you can brand such a clear non-fact one and think you'll get away with it here. Of course you be ridiculed for this type of stupidity. Arrington is NOT as good as his talent may allow him to be one day. But, he's still as productive and dominating as any player is.

Man, sometimes you are like a pitcher at the homerun derby. You just can't help serving up the easy ones.

[budski]

WB and Art,

How you guys can retain these statistics on players is beyond me.

I just go on memory of the games.

[Beaudry]

Originally posted by Art

WB,

If Arrington doesn't play a down, the Redskins STILL have the best overall linebacking group, though it is closer. In any case, with Arrington back, it's a blowout. You can't possibly tell others you took EVERYTHING into account when doing your rankings by basically saying you don't factor the possibilty of Arrington being available.

If healthy, we definately have the best linebackers in the division. Unfortunately, we have to hope that not only Arrington is good to go, but Barrow or Holdman. We also have great depth, but that depth goes to hell if 2 of your starters can't play near their best.

Redskins - all about the injuries

Iggles - mostly due to the coaching

Giants - tie with the Iggles

Cowboys - too much change with the 3/4 to be any good this season.

[RunRiggoRun]

Originally posted by Westbrook36

I love how because you have tons of players at a position, it's considered "fantastic depth". For every McCune or Marshall you can throw out, I can just as easily throw out McCoy and Adams.

Do we really know how rookies or veterans coming off of serious injuries are going to perform to reasonably give them value as depth?

Tackles Sacks

Lemar Marshall 69 1.5 (back up role)

Warrick Holdman 78 0.5

Marcus Washington 107 4.5

+ Arrington

I understand your stance on McCune and Barrow, but dont forget that Marshall and Holdman are there too and probably the front runners. And this isnt that big of a deal because it goes.

1) Skins

2) Eagles

3) Giants

4) Cowboys

Skins edge out the Eagles because of Washington and Arrington, and whoever is in the middle because GW can put anyone there.

And before the Eagles finally got Trotter in shape and off special teams last year, they were one of the worst in the league against the run, but Johnson is the second best D Coordinator in the Division, so they are 2nd.

G-men have a good core, pierce is solid but can he do it with a normal scheme as well as he did last year, who knows? maybe. He will have a solid year but will struggle without GW (slightly)

Cowboys have a decent group and have to prove they can play in the 3-4.

The whole division is very very close at LB, so maybe we should let the season decide.

[VAsBeachBoy]

Originally posted by Westbrook36

You know, I did some thinking last night and I am thinking the Skins probably are a step ahead of the Eagles, although I still put the Giants starting unit ahead.....don't know why noone thinks they are any good when all three are above average.

In your zeal to make points and totally discredit others, you just make ridiculous assertations, Arthur. Seriously, the statement above is complete garbage.

I love how because you have tons of players at a position, it's considered "fantastic depth". For every McCune or Marshall you can throw out, I can just as easily throw out McCoy and Adams.

Do we really know how rookies or veterans coming off of serious injuries are going to perform to reasonably give them value as depth?

You also fall into the trap of looking at talent on paper as part of your rankings. I'm going to get bashed heartedly but Emmons has played better than Arrington over the last 3 years and yes, I know Arrington was hurt last year. This is a fact that can't even be argued but I'm sure I'll be ridiculed for even suggesting it.

HMMM... Let's take a look at some paper talent, that reflects ones on field performance.

Arrington

2001- 82 tak, 1 sak, 3 int, 6 pass d

2002- 67tak, 11 sak, 8 pass d

2003-75 ta, 6 sak, 10 pass d

2004- hurt

Emmons

2001- 61 tak, 1 sak, 0 int, 1 pd

2002- 50 tak, 3.5 sak, 0 int, 2 pd

2003- 64 tak, 0 sak, 0 int, 5 pd

2004- 62tak (35 assisted), 1sak, 0 int, 3pd

-only once better than 3.5 sacks with 6

-only 4 ints in 9 years of NFL play

-injured way more than Arrington during season, such an occurence as last years isn't a trend just an unfortunate accident

Yeh, they are real close to each other!

I can't believe you would even ask this question in belief your analysis is even close. Our LBs are among the best group in the league and with Barrow(140 some tackles two years ago, and some say he's done and no longer capable... haha) these skins may pass the Pats in terms of production. When it comes to the cream of the crop you have to go with the Steelers right now. Furthermore on this topic, you have no clue WHATSOEVER how Pierce will do for you guys this year. He could easily have a similar downfall just as portis did for us. Nick Griesen is garbage period.

Offseason sux!

Your right no need to argue, Im right your wrong, Im smart your not, now apologize and go to your room...

[Westbrook36]

Emmons is much better in pass coverage....unless, of course, we are going to use passes defended as the only criteria. You can't even argue this. He makes better decisions, is rarely caught out of position, and doesn't make the mental mistakes that plague Arrington.

Tackles is as close to a meaningless stat as there is when comparing players in different defensive schemes against each other. Are we supposed to give Arrington tons of credit for his 10 sack year when he was sent to the QB the whole year? I can count on one hand then number of times Emmons blitzed his last year on one hand.

Arrington is undisciplined, raw, often out of position, and gives up chunks of yards in order to deliver a bigger hit. All of you being Skins fans have witnessed this his entire career. Why are you acting suprised now? In one thread you deride LA for his obvious weaknesses, yet when an outsider states these facts, you are quick to prop him back up to the mythical status he enjoys among the less informed.

[Art]

WB,

Show me the post in another thread where I deride Arrington in any way? I have LONG stated Arrington is not the player he could be given his talent, but, he has ALWAYS actually performed better than just about anybody. The fact that he hasn't really exploded and matched his talent is, certainly, a problem. The fact that despite that he still is the most productive, game-changing strongside backer until he got hurt after changing positions is clear as well.

Emmons is probably better in coverage, though, Arrington makes more plays in coverage despite being used FAR less in coverage. As you note, Emmons is rarely blitzed and Arrington is constantly sent after the QB, yet, Arrington still triples Emmons in coverage when it comes to breaking up passes. Remarkable for him, don't you think?

Arrington does make mistakes in his play. Yet, in three of his five seasons, he's been a member of a Top 5 defense and in the fourth he was a member of the No. 10 defense. He can't be killing the team totally now, can he?

Emmons may not make the mistakes Arrington has been said to make. That's true. He also doesn't make the plays Arrington makes. That's what makes Arrington better.