AsburySkinsFan

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Everything posted by AsburySkinsFan

  1. AsburySkinsFan

    What do you Believe??? (Religion)

    Here's my biggest problem with the "God wants us to take him on faith not proof" argument, why? The answer is typically "obedience", but that doesn't make sense either. If there is a god and that god is the Judeo Christian god then he created us with smart minds that seek evidence and proof, scientific minds. But he hid himself and chose only to whisper to a few people and has all but stopped since. So what's the purpose of just faith without seeing? Why the game? If god's purpose is to save the world then do it, he's changed the rules before why not do it again. I know the answer, it's the mystery of god. Well, for me, that answer stopped being acceptable.
  2. AsburySkinsFan

    What do you Believe??? (Religion)

    Well we are certainly beyond arguing for the Judeo-Christian god. At the very best what you're after is a primary mover god, one who sets things in motion and then hides himself from perception. Sooner or later we stop talking about a god and start describing an external force. And we can work with this through Occam's Razor, all things being equal the simplest explanation tends to be the correct one. So which is more likely 1) an all powerful god and conscious god created everything, set it all in motion and then hid himself through purposeful blinding of intelligent minds and is now off somewhere entertaining himself or 2) an as of yet undiscovered process brought the universe into being and is only hidden because the limits of our scientific exploration? My mother in law would say, "It's god" but then she's not real bright. The scientific mind says that we cannot assume god simply because we don't have a better answer.
  3. AsburySkinsFan

    What do you Believe??? (Religion)

    Augustine started with the assumption of God as are you, that's not proof that a presupposition. It was Augustine's fault, as it is yours. Believe it or not Augustine was wrong.
  4. AsburySkinsFan

    What do you Believe??? (Religion)

    @PeterMPthe sun coming up is not proof of God, neither is the fact that since the sun has come up for millions of years proof of God, neither is the fact that I'm reasonably sure that the sun will come up tomorrow. I don't know where you came up with this idea that predictability is the evidence of god. Not when physics provides a reasonable answer to whether or not the sun will come up. You seriously sound like the ancient Greeks that look out in the morning and see the sun rising and give glory to Apollo for riding his chariot across the sky again.
  5. AsburySkinsFan

    What do you Believe??? (Religion)

    I always feel like a drunk when reading your posts. If god intentionally put blinders on people because we might prove his existence then that god is a bit of a prick. And there is a way to see beyond your own perception. It's called community. Where you may not be able to see others can. And if your argument is simply about the limited nature of perception then your argument isn't for god, it is instead the limitations of the human creature. And then science's quest would be to reduce those limitations by expanding human perception.
  6. AsburySkinsFan

    What do you Believe??? (Religion)

    This right here is why I no longer believe. I have no reason to believe that god exists. And you can argue first mover, you can argue gaps, you can argue sunsets, you can argue love, you can argue complexity; I know them all. I've tasted the goodness of the word of god and I have fallen away. Those faith commitments I once held as true no longer are sufficient. I don't see god working in this world, I see people. I don't see the church as an alternative, in fact I see the church is exactly the same as everyone else only in denial through their delusion that they are exempt because they said a cosmic "I'm sorry". It doesn't even bring me pain to write this because it's not like I've lost something. So in your mind god exists until we open the box that finally shows that there is no god. That's gaps brother, shoving god into the cracks of the unknown all to maintain the idea of a god. The only problem is that with every day your god becomes smaller, shoved into a tinier box than the day before because human knowledge grows forcing the idea of god to the margins.
  7. AsburySkinsFan

    What do you Believe??? (Religion)

    That clip right there describes religion better than anything I could ever do or say. "You didn't see what was, you saw what you wanted to see." A car accident: "God was with my baby." says the mother ignoring the implication that God was not with the guy in the other car who died. Recovery from Cancer: "God cured me." says the patient sitting in the hospital room as the doctors who just finished the last round of chemo leave the room. Missionary "God has called me to the foreign mission field" he says with empty pockets and no way to get there. We see what we want to see, and I was as guilty of that as anyone. I spent a lot of time at first trying to prove God, then when I found out I couldn't prove god I shoved him into the cracks of life, then when the cracks got filled in and god got smaller I put god behind everything, but then if god is behind everything then god is culpable. Finally, there were just too many unresolved problems that theology couldn't account for; why doesn't god speak today? Oh yes, god speaks through the church. Which one? Because there are a LOT of voices speaking on behalf of god that say contradictory things. Oh the true and authentic church....yours. In the end it's nothing more than a Rorschach test that reveals more about you than the world around you.
  8. AsburySkinsFan

    What do you Believe??? (Religion)

    So your argument is that science is irrelevant because a caveman pulled a "Little Orphan Annie"?
  9. AsburySkinsFan

    What do you Believe??? (Religion)

    And then when the science of the gap is explained the response is, "See how amazing god is, look what he ordered the world." This IS the definition of a presupposition in an argument, god is presumed therefore god IS the answer...to every question.
  10. AsburySkinsFan

    What do you Believe??? (Religion)

    And the theologically trained mind simply fills in the gaps of human knowledge with "god". Except when those gaps are pushed back then god gets smaller. Come on man, you know me. I know the arguments and I know st the end of the day the best apologetics can do is argue for a first mover, all the rest is doctrinal leaps. Can't explain it? God Can explain it? God Except all of those are faith commitments not a basis of fact.
  11. AsburySkinsFan

    What do you Believe??? (Religion)

    Don't believe my question was addressed to you
  12. AsburySkinsFan

    What do you Believe??? (Religion)

    It seems an odd approach to preach Jesus to a bunch of Greeks without talking about the biographical nature of Christ. You seem to be suggesting that Paul's sermons to polytheistic Greeks was absent biography, and based on doctrine? How do you think that would play without the biographical gospels? At some point you have to talk about the man and how he figures into all the rest. It's the very reason the Gospels are first in the New Testament. As for Jesus' kingdom, you're confusing the question he was asked, they were asking about borders, and the Kingdom of God is borderless it is "from above" but if Revelation is to be believed it will be THE kingdom on Earth as it was in the beginning.
  13. AsburySkinsFan

    What do you Believe??? (Religion)

    So the burden of proof in a discussion about the existence of god does not fall to the one arguing the claim of god's existence? I'm not sure you understand how this thing works.
  14. AsburySkinsFan

    Fixing the Republican Party (new material on pg 9)

    Ok, I thought that might be the case that your experience is mostly with a traditionally more liberal denomination, Presbyterian church, which typically falls farther Left than my own United Methodist tradition. The three that I mentioned are the three that we're experiencing in our culture today, which is when the leadership voices need to be heard even more. And I get how difficult it is as a religious leader to talk about equally respecting other's religions. In NoVa it's probably easier given the cultural diversity there, but here in vanilla America where most Xians are evangelical and feel that god has called them to convert everyone else, that message rings oddly. Instead what we get here most often a carbon copy of the Jerry Falwell/Pat Robertson. As for what I used to believe, I totally get how folks still believe. Hell, I'm only a couple years removed myself. My sarcasm comes because that's who I am and how I approach things. These were the things that I struggled with the most and things that just don't make sense to me any more. I can't even pretend about it anymore. Look, if I'm wrong then I'm dead wrong and so be it.
  15. AsburySkinsFan

    What do you Believe??? (Religion)

    1) the Jews ignored it because it was just another in a long line of failed Messiahs. 2) and yet by 397 CE those four texts receive the primacy of importance in the canon, to which Paul's letters serve as supplemental. What's more is that we never hear an evangelistic sermon from Paul, what we do have are letters to established churches, so lets not pretend that Paul was ignoring the biographical, that biographical is what establishes Jesus and frames his existence and purpose. 3) you are blending the term gospel here from the gospel genre to "the gospel", that said there is so little focus on the afterlife in the gospels, instead they focus primarily on the last week of Jesus' life and his sermons on how to LIVE in the Kingdom of God. These are not texts to tell people how to get to heaven. They are instead texts proclaiming a new king, a new kingdom, and a new way to live within that kingdom. 4) the Synoptics certainly do flip the conquest expectation on its head but at the same time, but that doesn't take away from the royal connections, and even the coronation by the soldiers with the crown, reed, and robe. This king is certainly different, but make no mistake the entire framework of how the story is told is borrowed.
  16. AsburySkinsFan

    What do you Believe??? (Religion)

    And yet the burden of proof is not on me anymore.
  17. AsburySkinsFan

    What do you Believe??? (Religion)

    That one case sets the historical precedent, and sets the framework for how a "gospel" functioned in the first century. The Christian gospels take this tradition and infuse it with nearly every other religious tradition and royal announcement known to the first century ears. These people were not strangers to this stuff. They would have heralds who would go to the towns and tell of the new leader's great deeds. As for whether or not Jesus said or did anything we'll never know, what we do know is what the evangelists said about him. When we see the gospels they are certainly longer than the single proclamation but that what frames the entire view of a gospel in the 1st century mind, it shows that the Christians didn't invent the genre but instead borrowed it, built on it, and drafted many of the fantastical things that were said about other rulers are gods of the time, and they boiled them all into a giant Jesus stew so that when that first century Jews heard this being told (because they were read aloud) they it would be as familiar as the Star Spangled Banner is to us but as challenging as reframing of that song to be about Mexico rather than the USA.
  18. AsburySkinsFan

    Fixing the Republican Party (new material on pg 9)

    Edit: I tried to write it, but the profanity filter keeps blocking it.
  19. AsburySkinsFan

    Fixing the Republican Party (new material on pg 9)

    If you think @Larryis an extreme Leftist then you don't have a clue what a Leftist is. Full stop To GOPers any non-GOPer is an extreme Leftist, and even some GOPers themselves who don't tow the Trumpista, Faux/Hannity line. They will throw RINO out at literally ANYONE who offers a criticism of the party. They are a ****show, and a far cry from Reagan's big-tent party.
  20. AsburySkinsFan

    Fixing the Republican Party (new material on pg 9)

    Nail on the head. Faux News and the Rightwing nuts love pointing to Detroit and the large Muslim population there and saying that they are enacting Sharia Law. Oh, I'm sorry, are you referring to the laws that were changed to allow a long wire to be set up around an entire neighborhood on poles so that fundamentalist Muslims could move about from house to house on the Sabbath? Oh sorry...not Muslims https://nypost.com/2015/05/24/high-wire-strewn-through-city-lets-jews-keep-the-faith/ You must be talking about the Muslims who are prohibiting alcohol sales on the Sabbath? Oh wait...no not Muslims again. Oh I know, you must be talking about the Muslims who want to tell my wife and daughter what they can do with their bodies. Or the Muslims who want laws against the relationship that my friends have with one another. Or the Muslims who want to post quotes from the Quran in county courthouses across the country. Truly the Evangelical Christians have become (and arguably always were) exactly what they feared the most.
  21. AsburySkinsFan

    PED's in Sports: should they be legalized?

    In private, certainly, just not on the field of play. Lyle Alzado
  22. AsburySkinsFan

    Fixing the Republican Party (new material on pg 9)

    Some choose to do so. It's not a blanket thing that all of them get, it's a stipulation in their 501c3 non-profit status. Any pastor who is not covered by an IRS 501c3 legal status can advocate for any candidate they choose. Most don't because they want the benefit. However, there are ways around it because you'd have to be pretty stupid to not figure out which issues each candidate supports and which issues your pastor says you're going to hell if you support. Oh they don't even have to be so indirect, they can just preach on the issues directly, and no, you're not being obtuse, it literally happens all the time and is a regular topic of discussion with clergy.
  23. AsburySkinsFan

    Fixing the Republican Party (new material on pg 9)

    I think your regional experience is swaying your impression regarding the whole. While my pastoral experience was in the midwest, I did have a denominational perspective and many conversations with clergy and laity across the country. I'll also remind the readers that a clergy voice is RARELY as effective on counter cultural issues than they'd ever like to admit. As such I think you're giving too much weight to the few voices that are speaking out. You're not sure what churches need to do in the other areas such as: National origin, Religious beliefs, Gender, or Pregnancy in terms of discrimination? Have you even turned on Faux News lately? Have you even seen the numbers of Evangelicals who directly oppose one or more of these not to mention sexual orientation and identity? All because what someone 2000 years ago some guy in a gown transcribed the words of his god, which later kinda got changed, and are now completely reinterpreted and or ignored? Oh yeah, I know God said we can eat shrimp now because of Peter's vision but that kinda goes against the idea that God's commandments are unchanging and eternal. I'm curious about your denominational experience though, seriously, no judgments. I'd just like to see if I'm correct in your background.
  24. AsburySkinsFan

    Fixing the Republican Party (new material on pg 9)

    You mean to tell me that you don't think that there is large scale preaching in American pulpits to defend their right to discriminate on religious grounds?
  25. AsburySkinsFan

    Fixing the Republican Party (new material on pg 9)

    I have not, and I do not believe I have spoken as if I do. If you have an issue with what I wrote I'd be happy to address it. Low hanging fruit man.