Is National Voter ID Law really that Bad???

[Renegade7]

10 minutes ago, KAOSkins said:

 

 

 

Didn't say we had it ready to go.  Just that I'd like it and we should get busy on tackling the pertinent and important issues you guys bring up.  I think there are encryption methods that, even now, might work around the who has what data issue.

 

This isn't an encryption issue, its a segmentation issue.  The authentication session over the Internet has to be seperate from the session for the actual vote, even though they are both coming from the same computer. There's no technology to help prevent a scenario where someone has a gun to someones vote at home.

 

10 minutes ago, KAOSkins said:

The mention of disability was very relevant.  I am disabled and going to vote on election day is a major pita.  I do it on the big elections but on most I vote early and have on occasion voted for someone who I learned closer to the election date might not have been the best choice.  So a method of voting from home, that wasn't just the blank ballot (which bad hubby no doubt filled in for his wife) I filled out and sent back - like the election I mentioned in my other post, would be something that would be of great benefit to me (and many others).  

 

 

 

 

What we can do is have people come to your home, scan your ID which will have a smart chip in it, be in the room with you to verify no one is forced to vote a certain way.  This should be available up to election Election Day, though coming to your house should be reviewed, not just anyone like for disabilities.  I want more absentee ballots, paper ballots.

[The 12th Commandment]

So much of my financial, social and civil life is already online.  Anonymity pressing one button after I've been verified doesn't seem like it should be a deal breaker.  Cost becomes an issue with your scenario I would think.

 

Love sci-fi, I can't imagine they won't figure it out. 

[Warhead36]

I'm fine with them but at the least make it not so hard for certain people to obtain one

[Renegade7]

2 hours ago, KAOSkins said:

So much of my financial, social and civil life is already online.  Anonymity pressing one button after I've been verified doesn't seem like it should be a deal breaker.  Cost becomes an issue with your scenario I would think.

 

Love sci-fi, I can't imagine they won't figure it out. 

 

I dont think you get what I'm trying yo tell you, electronic authentication is done via matching numerical values.  You can't just send one and the government say "looks good to me", it needs something to compare to to make sure its legit l, like an original copy.

 

It's called non-repudiation, casting the vote isn't the problem, proving its really you is.  Separating the vote from the voter is probably impossible because you have to make sure the internet session that is used to prove its you had to come from same place that casts the vote.  That will be done via IP address to prevent a man in the middle attack or cross-site request forgery, basically someone stealing your session and voting for you.

 

Additionally, doing this over the Internet it will be harder to prevent tampering or hacking attempts on the servers themselves, your desktop is a sitting duck for targeted malware if we go your route of online voting.  You can't hack a piece of paper.

 

Our advisories aren't playing around going after our elections, putting that system on the public facing internet is a terrible idea.  Figuring it out isn't the problem, its not worth the risk of an election system with no analog backup.  What are you going to print your vote on your printer? What way will there be to verify that?  When I pass an IT certification its done on a special printer with specific type of paper, so sell it at Walmart? No.

[Larry]

10 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

It's possible considering authentication doesn't have to be linked to the actual vote if were talking about a web application.  I don't think we should do it though, for several of the reasons already mentioned.

 

I don't know if anyone has done the election official thing, but I've done it several times, including 2008 presidential.  There was a period where Virginia was using giant computers for people to make their selection.  You were given a card after authenticating at the front with whatever id you had, and put it in the machine to make your selection.  Now with the printout at the end of the day, its jus the vote count.  I can't confirm the card didn't carry the voter identity to the vote when it was cast.

 

The authentication obviously has to be attached to your vote, at the time you vote. 

 

Where i vote, we have paper ballots where we fill in a dot. The ballot has a serial number on it. And when you sign the book, they record which serial number they gave to which voter. 

 

BUT, the serial number on the ballot is on the edge of the ballot, and it's perforated. I at least ASSUME that there's a point in the process, after the election, where they tear the perforation, to remove the serial number from the ballot. 

[Renegade7]

4 hours ago, Larry said:

 

The authentication obviously has to be attached to your vote, at the time you vote. 

 

Where i vote, we have paper ballots where we fill in a dot. The ballot has a serial number on it. And when you sign the book, they record which serial number they gave to which voter. 

 

BUT, the serial number on the ballot is on the edge of the ballot, and it's perforated. I at least ASSUME that there's a point in the process, after the election, where they tear the perforation, to remove the serial number from the ballot. 

 

You in Virginia as well?  I tired looking into it, it does look like the serial is eventually ripped off, its on there to make sure you aren't walking to the counter machine with a fake ballot.  Those ballots are guarded in case of a recount, the scanners look extremely simplistic, but I want more info.  I'd rather tweak this process then rely entirely on electronic counting and recording, we have to have an analog backup of the votes in the event of attempted compromise.  Like I mentioned doing this back in the day, this is an extremely guarded process once the polls close and we start packing everything up.

[Larry]

Oh, I like the "paper ballots and run it through the scanner" system. 

 

At least to me, I assume it's cheap. (You only need one scanner per precinct. And you don't even HAVE to have that many. Drive the ballots to the office, and one scanner can count the whole county.)

 

And the paper ballots are your "paper trail". If you suspect something with the count, you can run them through the scanner (or a different scanner) in minutes. 

[The 12th Commandment]

On 9/8/2018 at 11:01 PM, Renegade7 said:

 

I dont think you get what I'm trying yo tell you, electronic authentication is done via matching numerical values.  You can't just send one and the government say "looks good to me", it needs something to compare to to make sure its legit l, like an original copy.

 

It's called non-repudiation, casting the vote isn't the problem, proving its really you is.  Separating the vote from the voter is probably impossible because you have to make sure the internet session that is used to prove its you had to come from same place that casts the vote.  That will be done via IP address to prevent a man in the middle attack or cross-site request forgery, basically someone stealing your session and voting for you.

 

Additionally, doing this over the Internet it will be harder to prevent tampering or hacking attempts on the servers themselves, your desktop is a sitting duck for targeted malware if we go your route of online voting.  You can't hack a piece of paper.

 

Our advisories aren't playing around going after our elections, putting that system on the public facing internet is a terrible idea.  Figuring it out isn't the problem, its not worth the risk of an election system with no analog backup.  What are you going to print your vote on your printer? What way will there be to verify that?  When I pass an IT certification its done on a special printer with specific type of paper, so sell it at Walmart? No.

I get and got what you're saying.  Not possible with today's technology and the paradigms they're designed under.  That doesn't mean it will never happen.  There will be some paradigm we haven't even dreamed of yet.  There is a big enough need and it makes enough sense, once the problems solved, that I'm sure it will happen.  My point was only that I'd like it, and that thought of paying bills online 25 years ago was just as far fetched so don't abandon hope.  I appreciate your expertise and the good explanations you provide.  Thanks

[Larry]

On 9/9/2018 at 1:01 AM, Renegade7 said:

You can't hack a piece of paper.

 

I'm pretty sure that hundreds of years of stuffing ballot boxes says otherwise.  

 

I do agree that it's harder to do it thousands of times, across an entire state (or multiple states), though.  

 

[Kilmer17]

Somehow bags of ballots seem to go missing or miraculously show up.

 

Everything is hack-able.

[Renegade7]

47 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

I'm pretty sure that hundreds of years of stuffing ballot boxes says otherwise.  

 

I do agree that it's harder to do it thousands of times, across an entire state (or multiple states), though.  

 

 

32 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

Somehow bags of ballots seem to go missing or miraculously show up.

 

Everything is hack-able.

 

That's not a hack in context of this conversation (online voting).  If the only record of the actual votes is electronic, that's terrifying to me and glad my state (Virginia) is getting away with it.  

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2018/08/09/ohio-special-election-missing-ballots-accident/945128002/
 

Quote

Under the rush of election nights, voting precinct officials nationwide often misplace ballots or send them to the wrong office. And those ballots are just as often discovered via audits or recounts, analysts said.

 

If you've ever had to be the one helping to pack that stuff up, you see how to a point its almost unnecceasirly complicated, but i get it to limit the chance of tampering much as possible.  It's why they typically won't let some be the lead unless they've done it a couple times, i never asked for that responsibility, i didn't think i was ready yet.

 

Quote

Local officials often don't find or don't report missing ballots because most races are won by big margins.

 

This goes to Larry's point and why the vote fraud crusade by Trump gets on my nerves.  Is the system perfect, no, but were seeing 9 times out of 10 is humar error, not human maliciousness.  We put that system on the public facing internet its a reachable target from every corner on the globe, very different level of risk, not even close, really.