Is it time to fire the training staff?

[skinfan2k]

It would help if teams get away from turf fields.  ACLs are easier to tear on those fields if your cleat gets stuck in the field

[KillBill26]

Washington football spokesman Tony Wyllie wouldn’t provide details on the expansion, which appears to have floor-to-ceiling windows overlooking the practice fields, other than to say in response to an email query: “We continue to expand and improve Redskins Park with more meeting rooms and offices.”

According to someone familiar with the project, the new space is primarily intended for offices and private baths for Snyder, Gruden, team president Bruce Allen and general manager Scot McCloughan.

Redskins Park had a $30 million upgrade in the summer of 2013, in which the training room and weight rooms were expanded. Its elaborate kitchen, which prepares 350 meals per day for players, coaches and staff and is directed by a full-time dietician, was part of that redo.

All of this, however, is tinkering at the edges of an outdated complex that falls further behind its NFL peers each year. Could it be that Snyder is holding off on gutting it entirely and constructing a state-of-the-art team headquarters until a new stadium deal is negotiated?

By simply standing pat, Snyder got the city of Richmond to build Washington’s football team a $10 million facility as part of the deal to lure the team’s three-week training camp to Virginia’s capital. Perhaps the suitor that convinces Snyder to abandon FedEx Field for a new home stadium — whether Maryland, Virginia or the District — will throw in a new Redskins Park, as well.

 

https://www.roanoke.com/sports/redskins/washington-redskins-practice-facility-upgrades-underway/article_1bddc075-f463-57ca-a051-af203282e804.html

 

I know this article is a few years old,  but not surprised to read this.  Article says nothing about the practice field, but informs us that "the new space is primarily intended for offices and private baths for Snyder, Gruden, team president Bruce Allen and general manager Scot McCloughan."

 

Add in the fact that Snyder may be sitting on his hands as a negotiating ploy, while redskins players have been dropping like flies over the years, is sickening.

[Wildbunny]

16 minutes ago, KillBill26 said:

 

So while the timing of saying the training staff should be fired is poor because it is immediately following injuries that couldn't have been prevented, doesn't mean we should all assume all the injuries we've had in recent years are all freak injuries in which none could be prevented, and then belittle the people who wonder if the Redskins could do something to improve in this area.

I doubt anyone really said that there's nothing that can be done to improve here. And practice fields is important.

 

Now, from the point of view of the owner, why would I invest millions in a brand new practice field when your lean on the actual one is reaching is end and you're looking for a new one? This won't happend until we find a new home for practicing, and we'll invest on the new field most probably.

 

Players not taking care of themselves doesn't had much to do with Coaching Staff. That's on the players, definately. Maybe the personnel department and scouting for going after such players. Don't select them on the 53, cut them, waive them, and let the word know that if you don't take care of yourself you're not gonna be part of this team long. But once again, that's easier said than done, as you can get rid of better players and coaches are always in "win now mode".

 

So we can compare with what's going on elsewhere, ESPN just released a non exhaustive list of injuries throughout the NFL. Have a look at the Vikings and their interior line being injured right now... That's scary. We're far from being the worse team as of right now. As much as Robert Davis' injury sucks he was slated to be at best the 4th WR. A place Maurice Harris or Trey Quinn might be able to take anyway. So that ain't a big deal. Guice's injury sucks, for sure, but if we can't survive this, then we aren't a good team.

 

http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/279070/the-biggest-injuries-of-nfl-preseason-2018-prognosis-replacements-fantasy

[JoggingGod]

I was wondering if Guice’s college injury was the reason he fell, but then I remembered that numerous even more injury prone backs went ahead of him.

 

The training staff can be blamed for other injuries but a torn ACL is a freak injury that can’t be prevented.

[KillBill26]

10 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

Now, from the point of view of the owner, why would I invest millions in a brand new practice field when your lean on the actual one is reaching is end and you're looking for a new one? This won't happend until we find a new home for practicing, and we'll invest on the new field most probably.

 

Players not taking care of themselves doesn't had much to do with Coaching Staff. That's on the players, definately. Maybe the personnel department and scouting for going after such players. Don't select them on the 53, cut them, waive them, and let the word know that if you don't take care of yourself you're not gonna be part of this team long. But once again, that's easier said than done, as you can get rid of better players and coaches are always in "win now mode".

I understand your take on the owners point of view, but it is disheartening to read the article from 2015 and see all that money being poured into everything at the practice facility but the fields.  Maybe injuries weren't as prevalent in the years leading up to that.  I know someone mentioned they upgraded the practice field this past off-season, so hopefully that will help.

 

As far as players taking care of themselves is solely on them, I agree with you to a certain degree, but I think many of us in a variety of industries see otherwise intelligent and hard-working people need a nudge in the right direction at certain times or in certain areas.  I would hate to think the training Dept would observe players not taking the necessary steps and think that dynamic is out of their hands.  And I'm sure they don't, but I think it is good practice for them to reflect on their approach and look for ways to improve.  And I agree with you as far as cutting players to send a message, not sure if training Dept and coaching staff would be on the same page with that.  And you don't want to burn a players bridge with other teams by putting out there that he doesn't prepare himself the right way. 

 

I always felt drafting good college players who suffered a freak injury in college, but still were determined to recover, was a good strategy bc you always found good value.  Whereas if they were healthy in college and had good stats, they could be a day 1 or 2 pick, but if we have an opportunity to get them on day 3, sign me up.  Maybe we need to re think that strategy, or at least implement on fewer occasions.

 

In the end, our injury situation in recent years has a lot of different variables, and unfortunately there are no easy answers.  

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I don’t believe anyone chiming in here is experienced/educated enough to determine whether our training staff is or isn’t at fault for the amount of injuries.

 

Obviously freak injuries occur on all teams, every season.

 

That said, looking at Football Outsiders Adjusted Games Lost to injury since 2009, the Redskins rank near the very bottom.

 

I know @thesubmittedone has discussed Larry Hess in the past.  He’s kind of like Scott Campbell in that you wonder how the hell he survived at Redskins Park, regime after regime.

 

Personally, I’d guess there are several factors that contribute to being so injury ridden.  Acquiring players with injury histories, lackluster strength/conditioning and facilties, a crap field, among other things.  All that stuff is rather sad for an organization worth as much as the Redskins.

 

 

[Wildbunny]

11 minutes ago, KillBill26 said:

I understand your take on the owners point of view, but it is disheartening to read the article from 2015 and see all that money being poured into everything at the practice facility but the fields.  Maybe injuries weren't as prevalent in the years leading up to that.  I know someone mentioned they upgraded the practice field this past off-season, so hopefully that will help.

 

I agree with you on what should be done, especially in "win now" mode.

But financial guys tends to only see things from the financial lens...

And that's what owners are... They want to win while investing as low as possible.

[Unbias]

Well, the team also drafts/signs guys with and injury history. When looking at Guice he has a very physical style. That will also wear on a player. 

 

Anyway, I've started think this team likes those home run swings in the draft. We should focus on guys that have a healthy track record and have game styles that seem like they transition well. 

[zCommander]

5 hours ago, Califan007 said:

What did the training staff do wrong?...I mean, specifically. 

 

They were hired by the Skins.

 

6 hours ago, Wildbunny said:

Derrius Guice? Wow... That one happened at the end of a 34 yards run. Tackle was not even violent, just a casual one from behind, like that happend hundredths of time in the NFL. Bad luck again.

 

He has said that his knee went out and felt it before he was touched. If you watch that run keep your eyes on his left knee and you will see it going limp. It was not bad luck. It was the same knee in college. I am a little surprised though that the Skins didn't do a precautionary MRI before putting him on the field knowing his college history and after what happened to RG3. Or did the Skins coaching staff overlooked it.

[Wildbunny]

 

Here is a video, and I do have a hard time seing when he really injured his knee. He seems to have an akward planting a few second before being hit. But that's merely it.

 

At the same time, I'm still astonished at how did he changed the ball when reaching the 40 from right to left... Impressive.

[Morneblade]

2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

I don't blame the staff for these ACL tears, that stuff happens all over the league, but I do believe other teams do a better job at being proactive and innovative in regards to injuries and overall player treatment.

 

 

I think this is the point the OP was getting at. Not only that, but our Strength and Conditioning program lagged behind for years. Our indoor practice "facility" is kinda a joke. I don't think we're good in preventative type stuff, seems it came out that a lot of guys were not taking their bodies last year, and I don't think it's an anomaly. I have no idea why we don't have a real indoor practice facility instead of the bubble. And we finally appear to have a good weight room, but how long did that take? it seems we are very much behind the curve here, certainly not ahead of it, and all of these things help contribute to injuries.

[goskins10]

2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

I don't blame the staff for these ACL tears, that stuff happens all over the league, but I do believe other teams do a better job at being proactive and innovative in regards to injuries and overall player treatment.

 

Also @Morneblade

 

Can you please be specific about these more proactive and innovative things others teams are going that the Redskins are not doing. And I mean specifics. Not just, they do better. Please provide tangible verifiable examples. Not being a smart ass here. I am more than willing to learn something. 

 

Just to be fair, I have plenty of data that says other teams struggle with injuries and in fact injuries in the NFL have gone up dramatically over all since the last CBA. But I would be interested in hearing what exactly the Redskins are not doing that they should be. 

 

Also, I just do not have time right now to dig everything up. But one nugget is: Since 2009 no team had 300 or more lost man games due to injury until 2016. In 2016 there were 4 teams, Last year (2017) there were 9. I know people want to pin this on the team - and hey I love a good FO bashing as much as the next fan. But this one is way off base. 

 

[Morneblade]

3 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

Also @Morneblade

 

Can you please be specific about these more proactive and innovative things others teams are going that the Redskins are not doing. And I mean specifics. Not just, they do better. Please provide tangible verifiable examples. Not being a smart ass here. I am more than willing to learn something. 

 

Just to be fair, I have plenty of data that says other teams struggle with injuries and in fact injuries in the NFL have gone up dramatically over all since the last CBA. But I would be interested in hearing what exactly the Redskins are not doing that they should be. 

 

Also, I just do not have time right now to dig everything up. But one nugget is: Since 2009 no team had 300 or more lost man games due to injury until 2016. In 2016 there were 4 teams, Last year (2017) there were 9. I know people want to pin this on the team - and hey I love a good FO bashing as much as the next fan. But this one is way off base. 

 

 

Nope, sorry, I really can't do that. Except for maybe a real inside practice facility, and better preventative care, which it came out earlier this year that guys were not hitting the ice tubs like they should. That sends a message that that's not the only thing that isn't really up to snuff. And there is the fact that we've been in the very bottom of the league with injuries over several years, which also points to more than just "bad luck".

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2018/08/10/for-redskins-injury-bug-rears-its-ugly-head-again-and-again-and-again/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.25c9566d7440

 

Just how often and how significantly has Washington been hampered by the injury bug over the past eight seasons? More than any other team except for the New York Giants and Indianapolis Colts. Both of those teams had the same number of seasons in the league’s bottom third for adjusted man-games lost.

[joeken24]

12 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

I believe we’ve been over this numerous times in the past.  You like to believe you’re a free thinker and those with an opposing point of view are merely sheep.  It’s never been a good look for you and that hasn’t changed.  

 

I realize this point continues to evade you but this is Dans day late and a dollar short organization so ultimately everything starts with him.  

 

 

 

 

Your comments are worth crickets.....continually. I'm not giving you the benefit of the doubt.

[Butters20]

10 hours ago, Wildbunny said:

 

I could agree with this, except we've been at the top of this list for years despise changing HC and S&C coaches...

So I would have to look elsewhere to find to reason for this.

It's possible to have multiple bad regimes in a row 

 

Also, other pro sports use metrics on injury rate to evaluate training methods, s and c protocols and even field conditions. If any are unsatisfactory, they make changes. 

[Berggy9598]

At what point does it stop being a coincidence and start being a snake of an owner viewing a competent training staff as an unnecessary overhead cost?

[NoCalMike]

At the end of the Guice run wasn't he sort of gang tackled? If the injury happened then, where 2-3 players are taking him down and maybe a 4th comes in and lays a hit on a limb.....how do you avoid that in the game of football?   Nothing about that play/injury says to me "training staff"

Injuries related to training staff would more be along the lines of players getting fatigued too quick in games, not being in proper shape when the season begins etc etc....but when it comes to injuries related to being hit/tackled?  Not sure if that is a training issue.

[Reaper Skins]

The issue to me isn't whether the training staff could have prevented this injury.

 

The issue is that this training staff, using outdated equipment and resources, will be the ones responsible for helping him recover from this injury.

 

Freak injuries happen everywhere, but they take longer to recover from, and have a higher chance of not healing properly and happening again, if you try to cut corners on the treatment side of things.

 

That's my main concern.  I worry that Guice, and all our players, are at a competitive disadvantage not because we have MORE injuries than other teams, but because of how their treatment and recovery is administered to them after the initial injury occurs.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

7 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I don’t believe anyone chiming in here is experienced/educated enough to determine whether our training staff is or isn’t at fault for the amount of injuries.

 

Obviously freak injuries occur on all teams, every season.

 

That said, looking at Football Outsiders Adjusted Games Lost to injury since 2009, the Redskins rank near the very bottom.

 

I know @thesubmittedone has discussed Larry Hess in the past.  He’s kind of like Scott Campbell in that you wonder how the hell he survived at Redskins Park, regime after regime.

 

Personally, I’d guess there are several factors that contribute to being so injury ridden.  Acquiring players with injury histories, lackluster strength/conditioning and facilties, a crap field, among other things.  All that stuff is rather sad for an organization worth as much as the Redskins.

 

 

4

 

Aren't those two statements in bold kinda contradictory? lol...

 

 

 

 

24 minutes ago, Reaper Skins said:

The issue to me isn't whether the training staff could have prevented this injury.

 

The issue is that this training staff, using outdated equipment and resources, will be the ones responsible for helping him recover from this injury.

 

 

 

What are the outdated equipment and resources?

 

 

1 hour ago, Berggy9598 said:

At what point does it stop being a coincidence and start being a snake of an owner viewing a competent training staff as an unnecessary overhead cost?

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Just now, Califan007 said:

 

Aren't those two statements in bold kinda contradictory? lol...

 

How exactly?

 

Hess has been around the Redskins forever through different coaches and GMs.  The Redskins have been one of the more injured teams in the league since 2009, maybe even before that. Guys certainly get fired for less in all walks of life, fairly or unfairly.  

 

 

[Reaper Skins]

9 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

What are the outdated equipment and resources?

All of Redskins park?  The article linked earlier in the thread (or maybe the injury thread) seems like the clearest explanation to me.  If Snyder is vying for a new stadium, it doesn't make sense to invest heavily in his current facilities

[Califan007 The Constipated]

5 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

How exactly?

 

Hess has been around the Redskins forever through different coaches and GMs.  The Redskins have been one of the more injured teams in the league since 2009, maybe even before that. Guys certainly get fired for less in all walks of life, fairly or unfairly.  

 

 

 

Because you said you don't believe any of us here are knowledgeable or qualified enough to know whether or not the training staff is in any way responsible for the level of injuries the team incurs. If that's the case, then we definitely are not knowledgeable or experienced enough to be drawing any conclusions whatsoever about the employment worthiness of anyone on the training staff, either. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Reaper Skins said:

All of Redskins park?

 

Does that include the staplers?

[Reaper Skins]

7 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

Does that include the staplers?

I mean, you're joking, but I doubt there's much, if anything at that facility that qualifies as "best in the NFL" in terms of quality or cutting edge.

 

I worked there on the grounds crew for summers in 04 and 05 and stuff was outdated then.  I still see a lot of the same stuff in pictures from this years practices.

 

Just my 2 cents though, I'm not a doctor 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Just now, Califan007 said:

 

Because you said you don't believe any of us here are knowledgeable or qualified enough to know whether or not the training staff is in any way responsible for the level of injuries the team incurs. If that's the case, then we definitely are not knowledgeable or experienced enough to be drawing any conclusions whatsoever about the employment worthiness of anyone on the training staff, either. 

 

Its totally unfair to question the staff responsible for having one of the most injured teams in football? ? Why exactly?  

 

Like I said in the same post you’re attempting to pick apart, I believe there are probably numerous reasons the team faces so many injuries.  I just don’t see why it’s irresponsible to wonder what’s going on with those in charge.

 

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

Its totally unfair to question the staff responsible for having one of the most injured teams in football? ? Why exactly?  

 

Like I said in the same post you’re attempting to pick apart, I believe there are probably numerous reasons the team faces so many injuries.  I just don’t see why it’s irresponsible to wonder what’s going on with those in charge.

 

 

 

1) You already answered the first question yourself lol...if we don't know nearly enough to draw any conclusions, how exactly are we gonna know what TO question to begin with? 

 

2) Contradictory statements is not "picking apart"...not to me, anyway. You could have also said "Yeah, let me make that bit clearer", but going with "you're picking apart my post" works, too lol *thumbsup*..