Momma There Goes That Man

Westworld - Season 2 Discussion *SPOILERS*

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Posted (edited)
Spoiler

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/westworld-katja-herbers-as-man-blacks-daughter-explained-1111458

"There's a world of stuff to talk about," Katja Herbers tells The Hollywood Reporter about her character's true name and purpose.
[This story contains spoilers for season two, episode four of HBO's Westworld, "The Riddle of the Sphinx."]

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited by visionary
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Posted (edited)

They just went balls to the walls checking off theories in this episode 

 

-Grace, the woman from RajWorld is the Man in Blacks daughter : confirmed 

 

-Is Logan alive or dead: confirmed dead 

 

- Ghost Nation is some sort of white blood cell type hosts that protect humans in the Park: confirmed 

 

- Elsie is alive: confirmed 

 

- William’s plan for Jim Delos was eternal life by uploading his mind to a Jim Delos host body: confirmed 

 

- it also seems really close to confirming that all the military personnel in the beginning of the season when Bernard wakes up on the beach are aware that he is a host. It seems like they are putting him into a loop to see if anything jogs his memory on what happened to Abernathy most likely. It’s bascislly what happened repeatedly this episode, he jogged his own memory by retracing his steps or being somewhere or seeing something he had before.

 

we still don’t know what Glory/the Door/The Valley Beyond is. We know Delores said it’s “what this place really is.” William said it’s his greatest mistake. 

 

I still think they have been replacing humans with hosts in the real world or not even replacing thel but just releasing hosts into the world and the valley beyond is the control center for all of them. It’s why Delores thinks they could have a chance to defeat humanity and why MIB thinks it was a mistake. Perhaps it started off as something like a military benefit and then turned into something more sinister and widespread. It’s clear they never perfected uploading human consciousness into a host with the Delos experiment. 

 

This epsidoe was great. The two monologues by Jim Delos (only the devil exists and looking up at the sky seeing God is just the devils reflection) and the Man in Blacks death (death was right across from you this whole time) were outstanding. The epsidoe was experts produced and directed. It’s hard to point out a favorite because it was all great but the Delos scenes really stood out, especially when old William shows up and you realize how long it has been. Also when Elsie and Bernard find him down there was really creepy. Somebody online mentioned it felt like something out a Kubrick movie and I agree. 

 

Just start to finish fanstatsic. I’m surprised they let so many theories and threads come together so soon. We aren’t even halfway thru the season. I can’t wait to see where they take us the rest of the way. 

 

Side note: I really hope it isn’t the “capturing dna to blackmail” angle on this because that to me is the least interesting idea I think they could go with 

Edited by Momma There Goes That Man

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Why do you call him the man in Black and then call him William. That annoys me.

 

Anyways, so a made up mind cannot acceptable the fact it is artificially created so it degrades,malfunctions, and stops working? Well, if we accept that premise, that implies Dolores and other self aware hosts will eventually degrade and malfunction. Yet we haven’t seen that. 

 

You could argue that Jim and the hosts are fundamentally different but are they? Both don’t know they are hosts to begin with so, how are they any different. Mapping a brain doesn’t seem any different than creating one. 

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So ford is coming back right, he send Bernard to print his brain and kill those technicians. 

 

 

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I have no frickin' idea what is going on with this show, but I'm going to keep watching.   Hopefully this isn't a Lost where they just making stuff up from season to season, and then end it with a lame conclusion.

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Posted (edited)

 

1 hour ago, Dr. Do Itch Big said:

Why do you call him the man in Black and then call him William. That annoys me.

 

Anyways, so a made up mind cannot acceptable the fact it is artificially created so it degrades,malfunctions, and stops working? Well, if we accept that premise, that implies Dolores and other self aware hosts will eventually degrade and malfunction. Yet we haven’t seen that. 

 

You could argue that Jim and the hosts are fundamentally different but are they? Both don’t know they are hosts to begin with so, how are they any different. Mapping a brain doesn’t seem any different than creating one. 

 

I try to distinguish William vs MIB to help avoid confusion in the timelines and whether I am referring to Jimmy Simpsons or Ed Harris' actions tho they are they same person obviously. I probably do misuse them in that context occasionally too.  

 

I get what you are saying and it is confusing as to what makes Delos vs a normal host different. Perhaps the difference is that Delos had his human consciousness transferred over to a host body. He was once human so it creates some sort of error and inability to function when that reality is understood by him. It has to stem from whatever level of human brain/consciousness is transferred over. The hosts do not even know there is a difference between bots and humans at the time they are created and begin their existence. To have knowledge of that prior life and mortality seems more profound. 

 

Which actually kinda brings me to an idea I saw mentioned and after I thought a lot about and ended up liking.

 

I am starting to think that MIB is dead and is a host. Or that he is about to die and will be given a choice to live on as a host. I think that is the game that Ford has for him. Mostly based on the two times Ford has spoken to him this season.

 

Young Ford host tells MIB: "the game begins where you end, and ends where you began"

To me that implies it at least begins at MIBs death. The next part I think is a reference to Delores and when William became the MIB, so when the MIB as we know him began. 

 

The next time Ford speaks to MIB was in last night's episode where Lawrence's daughter tells him: "And you still don't understand the real game we are playing here. If you are looking forward, you are looking in the wrong direction." We know MIB seems to be content to die in the park but first wants to undo a mistake or "burn this whole place to the ground" as he said. So if he is looking ahead thinking that death is in front of him, he might need to be looking to the past.

 

So I'm thinking that one of two things is possible: 

 

1. MIB is already dead and is currently a host on a path to discover his own consciousness. We may see that he was actually killed the night of Ford's death or at some other point. I think that Ford may have perfected the Delos experiment and MIB is the trial run of that. Ford is going to get MIB past that cognitive plataeu that Delos couldn't and that is the end of his new game with MIB. Perhaps Delos never could get past this plateau because he never went through the maze that other hosts did which allowed them to discover their consciousness and adapt to it. That's where Ford has one-upped MIB in this game for 30 years by already discovering the way past that plateau?

 

2. The other brain cell that Bernard made was MIB. For MIB to complete Ford's game and "end where you began" he will have the option to become a host and stay in Westworld, the only place he ever felt like himself. 
 

Or that doesn't make any sense and Ford's quotes are actually just referring to the good man that MIB used to be and with MIB's sudden goodwill in the last episode, the door/game that Ford has is a redemption arc of sorts for MIB to make amends before he dies. 

Edited by Momma There Goes That Man
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I actually think 3 or two are the most likely scenarios and that they are actually both in play. Watched the episode  again on my lunch. MIB seeing Craddock spin Lawrence's wife and taunting her was basically his own reflection from when he did the exact same thing in season 1 to her. Presented with his own actions, he couldn't handle it and killed Craddock. This is the start of his redemption arc. It is similar to the devil line, he saw his own reflection staring back at him. 

 

His redemption arc will lead him to The Door which is where he will have the choice to die as a mortal and destroy all of the Delos data or the controls they have for the hosts that have been released into the society. Destroying this would let him die as the white hat again, most likely in the arms of Delores. Or he can choose to accept his host body and the brain that was created and grabbed by Bernard. I think it is MIBS mind and a perfected unit from Ford, far beyond what they saw with Jim Delos. 

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Posted (edited)

So Maeve seems to be accessing the mesh network Bernard mentioned in episode 1 to override the hosts telepathically/with WiFi. 

 

The intro scene set present day was interesting too. I think the reason so many of the hosts they are pulling from the lake are showing virgin data cores/brains is because they are empty vessels Delores found. They are decoys for the hosts that she wants to escape with her. Those hosts are found “dead” in the lake so that Delos security team thinks they are contained and it’s over meanwhile Delores and her group are actually escaping.

 

I think their cores could have been put into other host bodies too. So Delores and Teddy are walking around escaping the park in bodies that do not look like Delores or Teddy. But that could get really confusing so maybe they just found unused copies of themselves somewhere along the way and that’s what is in the lake 

Edited by Momma There Goes That Man
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"You program us to love each other then get mad when we do?"

 

That's deep.  This show is touching a nerve concerning AI that few have dared.  I'm sure people are entertained by this show, but this is real talk.

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Dr. Do Itch Big said:

Boring episode, a lot of it was unnecessary long to further the plot. 

I'll give you that I may have missed how they ended up in Samurai Land to begin with.

 

Are you looking at this show stricly from an entertainment standpoint or bigger question about self-aware AI as well?  I'm the type to read "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep", even episodes that aren't the greatest make me ponder different takes on what "too far" looks like.

Edited by Renegade7

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10 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

I'll give you that I may have missed how they ended up in Samurai Land to begin with.

 

They crossed into this park the last time they went underground into the labs. This was after they were chased by ghost nation and narrowly escaped. After walking thru the labs they came up to the surface and Lee was disoriented thinking they were in the Klondike region of Westworld but had actually crossed over in Shogun World 

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4 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

They crossed into this park the last time they went underground into the labs. This was after they were chased by ghost nation and narrowly escaped. After walking thru the labs they came up to the surface and Lee was disoriented thinking they were in the Klondike region of Westworld but had actually crossed over in Shogun World 

Ya, I remember them running, I guess I don't understand why if all the sudden its snowing, maybe they needed to turn around sooner?

 

I'm fine with it, we got robot ninjas out of it.

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I enjoyed the episode a lot. Slowed down just long enough to get a good look at Samurai world and all the Maive network stuff.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, @SkinsGoldPants said:

Maive network stuff.

 

This is one of the most important parts of this episode. I feel like something big will happen later in the story involving the mesh network and it will only work because of the setup in this episode. 

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7 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

This is one of the most important parts of this episode. I feel like something big will happen later in the story involving the mesh network and it will only work because of the setup in this episode. 

 

Agreed. She's going to go to the other "Worlds" and team up the different versions of herself. 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

They crossed into this park the last time they went underground into the labs. This was after they were chased by ghost nation and narrowly escaped. After walking thru the labs they came up to the surface and Lee was disoriented thinking they were in the Klondike region of Westworld but had actually crossed over in Shogun World 

Was this before or after Dolores ran into Maeve?  

Edited by visionary

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, visionary said:

Was this before or after Dolores ran into Maeve?  

 

It was after. Maeve leaves the train, goes to the control room, finds Lee and Hector then they head out into the park. Eventually they pass Delores at night. The next day they are chased by Ghost Nation and escape into another underground lab where they continue walking. Here, they meet up with Armistice (apparently worked her way there from the Mesa/control room area. It's not clear but seems that all the underground areas connect?) and continue through the underground tunnels, appearing above ground again in Shogun world. 

 

I am only assuming they crossed over underground since it didn't show or mention thru the characters that they crossed any border like Emily did fleeing The Raj. I feel like that's a solid assumption though since Lee is surprised to realize they are in Shogun World and he would have been aware of the park border had they crossed it like Emily did.

Edited by Momma There Goes That Man

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10 hours ago, @SkinsGoldPants said:

 

Agreed. She's going to go to the other "Worlds" and team up the different versions of herself. 

 

That would be sweet. 

 

I would love a Telltale game of this, btw. Also, the music was on point this episode. Wu-Tang getting in there was the highlight of my night lol. 

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Ya, heard shogun Paint it Black as well.

 

So... can Maeve control Delores?  I see possible power struggle, even if they get on same page with what they want

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I like how they have shifted what we expected from the end of season 1 with Delores being the hero. Now it seems Delores is the satan figure of this arc and Maeve is being the actual messiah figure. I don't know where they will finish that up but it's interesting seeing Delores become what she hated in an animal farm type of way. 

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