is Trumpism helping or harming the position of Christianity in America?

[JCB]

13 minutes ago, Elessar78 said:

No one denies that. But what you have is what you have because of the evangelicals and other Cs that are beholden to the sellouts.

Full agreement. I have literally written books on this. (No foolin'.)

[grego]

1 hour ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

The number one reason that ANYBODY should have voted for Hillary is that she was, of the two, far and away the better choice.

 

If they were looking for the more religious candidate, that'd be Clinton as well and again, it's not even close. Trump is, by far, the least Christian president we have ever had. I'm a better Christian than he is and I'm atheist.

 

 

"better" is a conclusion, but, i think how we determine what is 'better' is the key. if one were an evangelical, and they  were choosing a president based on lexicographical order, or what attribute is more important than any other attribute, what would that be?

 

evangelicals would be more likely to vote for a candidate that is pro life, i would think, or at least someone who is not rabidly pro choice. being against planned parenthood, i would say, being tough on immigration would probably be in that wheelhouse. i think abortion would probably be the number one thing, though. 

 

hillary could arguably be the 'better christian' but you have to look at what image of hillary an evangelical voter might have. you could say hillary took x amount of dollars from the saudis, for example, and trump didnt, therefore, i couldnt vote for her. also, i'm not sure a persons acual character is necessarily high on their lexo scale. i tend to think that a person (i think this is both sides) will vote for someone who they know is flawed, so long as they represent the actual policy positions they most hold dear. someone could use this to justify support of someone like roy moore, or might have overlooked bill clintons philandering back in the day. 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

1 hour ago, grego said:

"better" is a conclusion, but, i think how we determine what is 'better' is the key.

No, you’re right. They’re going to do whatever mental contortion it takes to rationalize the lie they’re telling themselves about Donald Trump being a good man and a God fearing Christian and Obama not being those things. Problem is that I ain’t stupid which would be a requirement for me buying their hypocritical bull****.

 

Look, if they want to stand up on a box and preach about God and morals, they need to not support Donald ****ing Trump, the man who sleeps with porn stars, who openly brags about bedding married women, who uses religion to manipulate people who are easily misled, who has lived his life practicing everything that Christianity teaches against and who acted entirely unchristian throughout the campaign and since. Period. End of story. Let’s not muddy the waters or make it any more complicated than it needs to be. They are straight up full of ****.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Sacks 'n' Stuff

[grego]

3 hours ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

No, you’re right. They’re going to do whatever mental contortion it takes to rationalize the lie they’re telling themselves about Donald Trump being a good man and a God fearing Christian and Obama not being those things. Problem is that I ain’t stupid which would be a requirement for me buying their hypocritical bull****.

 

Look, if they want to stand up on a box and preach about God and morals, they need to not support Donald ****ing Trump, the man who sleeps with porn stars, who openly brags about bedding married women, who uses religion to manipulate people who are easily misled, who has lived his life practicing everything that Christianity teaches against and who acted entirely unchristian throughout the campaign and since. Period. End of story. Let’s not muddy the waters or make it any more complicated than it needs to be. They are straight up full of ****.

 

I'll put it this way- if you were a strictly pro life voter- this was your #1, no compromise issue (which it is on both sides for many voters), who do you vote for? The person who is for or against that issue?

 

This may be the wrong example because you may not have strong feelings one way or another, but whatever your #1 issue is, imagine that, x10. Because abortion is an emotional, no compromise issue for most americans. If you think abortion is murder, voting for a candidate who may be an otherwise terrible person is still a no brainer, because hes going to come down on your side on your #1 issue. And that's because the alternative is not an option.

 

I'm not saying Donald Trump can't be every bad thing you imagine. I'm saying why someone would vote for him based on one issue. The other issues are secondary. Not unlike being against torture morally, yet I can paint a picture where you would be a moral monster not to torture someone under the right conditions. 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

38 minutes ago, grego said:

I'll put it this way- if you were a strictly pro life voter- this was your #1, no compromise issue (which it is on both sides for many voters), who do you vote for? The person who is for or against that issue?

1. At some point I’d wake up and realize that the GOP is just mouthing the words “pro life” in an attempt to manipulate me. There sure have been some expensive ass abortions from GOP big wigs lately. What was the one last week? $1.3 million? I also remember the time Donald talked about aborting Tiffany.

 

2. Why do the polls say that 70% of white evangelicals would prefer Trump get the nomination over any other Republican candidate in 2020? Those guys are all pro life too.

 

3. Your example isn’t what’s actually happening. These guys aren’t going around saying “he doesn’t represent Christian values but he’s pro life so I had to vote for him.” They’re telling themselves and trying to tell us that he’s a good Christian. Christian leaders are on tv defending his every transgression. They’re always saying **** like, “I’m glad we have a president who understands the power of prayer.” People are writing books about Donald Trump’s Faith. It’s un-****ing-believable.

Edited April 21, 2018 by Sacks 'n' Stuff

[c slag]

I think it is easy to get the religious right to vote for you based solely on two issues 

1-anti abortion 

2-pro guns

Stop talking after stating your positions because they are done listening 

[AsburySkinsFan]

17 hours ago, JCB said:

Additionally, I'd say that there exist evangelical communities who aren't beholden to the corporate Christian sellouts. Evangelicals who care about the poor, about social justice, etc., could (and did) easily see in Clinton policies more likely to address the issues they think are most important for Christians to support.

There certainly are, they just aren’t mainstream Evangelicals. Most of the ones you describe are found in the mainline denominations (Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian etc). Evangelicals are predominantly Baptist in theology (whether their sign says it or not), there is a sizeable population of Evangelicals within United Methodism mostly in the Southeast.

That said within American Christianity there is a substantial movement that reflects what you’re talking about, some of those are the so called “Red Letter Christians” for their proposed approach of focusing on the teachings of Jesus above everything else. 

Most Evangelicals would call those Red Letter Christians liberals. Jim Wallis with Sojourners is a great example.

[AsburySkinsFan]

11 hours ago, grego said:

 

I'll put it this way- if you were a strictly pro life voter- this was your #1, no compromise issue (which it is on both sides for many voters), who do you vote for? The person who is for or against that issue?

 

This may be the wrong example because you may not have strong feelings one way or another, but whatever your #1 issue is, imagine that, x10. Because abortion is an emotional, no compromise issue for most americans. If you think abortion is murder, voting for a candidate who may be an otherwise terrible person is still a no brainer, because hes going to come down on your side on your #1 issue. And that's because the alternative is not an option.

 

I'm not saying Donald Trump can't be every bad thing you imagine. I'm saying why someone would vote for him based on one issue. The other issues are secondary. Not unlike being against torture morally, yet I can paint a picture where you would be a moral monster not to torture someone under the right conditions. 

Exactly this.

It is however NEVER pointed put that abortions FELL under Obama and ROSE under Bush.

[Burgold]

If you believe in the Ten Commandments then Christians support of Trump is hurting their position. After all, it's extremely likely that Trump has broken all of them. 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Burgold

[LD0506]

Oy, here's another thread I shouldn't even read much less post in, but since I had my tact surgically removed years ago here goes....

 

 

IMO by dragging the Evangelicals into his personal morass he does us all a great service. The overt lying and hypocrisy we have seen for decades as the bible humpers shouldered their way into politics is a self-inflicted wound and lays bare the utter lack of underlying morality in them. They would have voted for the rotting corpse of Vladimir Lenin if it meant they could be openly and unapologetically mean in public again, flaunt their ass-holier-than-though snottery over others without a single second of reflection. The unspoken racism and faux-superiority that fuels them, the arrogance of ignorance where a dollar in a plate absolves them from six and a half days a week of being assholes to everyone else feeds the racism, sexism, classism, everythingism that shields them from ever looking in the mirror and seeing what looks back at them. 

 

Now, I know there are several good, decent religious people here that might take offense at my words. I'd ask that you pause a second and reflect on exactly whom I am casting aspersions on. I'm willing to accept that the majority of good hearted people of faith don't fit these descriptions and somehow troubled by the path taken by the most obvious and many things said in their names, but tell me, isn't this the exact same dynamic we hear about police? "Oh, the ones that support it with silence are just as guilty?" How about Muslims after every terrorist incident, "Why aren't they speaking up and doing something about it?" Where is the grassroots groundswell of revulsion within the Christian community to reject these voices? Where are those that will actually lives those precepts they claim to hold so dear instead of just paying lip service to them?

 

I assume it is easy to tell yourself "Well, I'm a Lutheran/Episcopalian/Methodist/whatever so it's not my fault and not my problem to fix" but that's pretty shortsighted IMO. The hardcore Trumpy rightwing Evangullibles are going to drag all y'all down with them whether you like it or not.

 

This whole revolting episode will be an opportunity for churches and their followers to reclaim their humility and genuine morality that were always supposed to be the hallmark of their faith. It remains to be seen whether or not they will, but ultimately it will be in their hands and on their heads.

[Bozo the kKklown]

 

[AsburySkinsFan]

9 hours ago, Burgold said:

If you believe in the Ten Commandments then Christians who Trump is hurting their position. After all, it's extremely likely that Trump has broken all of them. 

But, who hasn’t.

I’ve heard that Trump is a baby Christian, we don’t expect him to be fully mature. We’ve all sinned, and the fact that Trump displays absolutely NONE of the Fruit of the Spirit doesn’t bother us as long as he’s forcing births and stopping the ghey.

[mcsluggo]

http://deadstate.org/christian-activist-god-will-curse-the-children-and-grandchildren-of-people-who-opposed-trump/

  Quote

Christian activist: ‘God will curse the children and grandchildren of those who opposed Trump’

“It’s not that Donald Trump is all that perfect of a guy,” Colbert said. “We all know he’s not. And we know that he’s not necessarily perfect in every way that we would like. That’s not how God works. He works through the ones he chooses. We don’t choose them.”

“All we have to do is recognize them and when you recognize a chosen one and you have the discernment to know that they’ve been chosen and know that that’s the will of God, then your life will be blessed. And if you come against the chosen one of God, you are bringing upon you and your children and your children’s children curses like you have never seen. It puts a holy fear in me.”

 

 

And this...is how you kill Christianity.    

[Dan T.]

^^ Oh, so your god said Trump is The Chosen One. 

 

Well, that's not what  my God said.  My God said "What the hell were you people thinking??!?"

 

Your god is as ****ing stupid as you are, Mary Colbert.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Dan T.

[NoCalMike]

An issue I have always had with the "pro-life" movement is that not only are they anti-abortion but they only want to reduce it in one way and that is outright making it against the law.  They seem to thumb their nose or outright ignore the fact that things like better sex ed & contraception actually go a long way in reducing abortions, but these same people seem to be against those things as well.  

 

This country is likely never going back to a pre-Roe v. Wade society.  It isn't happening.  So why not at least come together on other ways to reduce the numbers?

 

You have a guy like Trump, who obviously likes to sleep around with anyone he finds attractive. Ok, whatever....but you'd think of all people, he'd be one advocating for sex ed & better access to low cost birth control.

 

Edited April 24, 2018 by NoCalMike

[Elessar78]

On 4/20/2018 at 3:17 PM, grego said:

 

 

"better" is a conclusion, but, i think how we determine what is 'better' is the key. if one were an evangelical, and they  were choosing a president based on lexicographical order, or what attribute is more important than any other attribute, what would that be?

 

evangelicals would be more likely to vote for a candidate that is pro life, i would think, or at least someone who is not rabidly pro choice. being against planned parenthood, i would say, being tough on immigration would probably be in that wheelhouse. i think abortion would probably be the number one thing, though. 

 

hillary could arguably be the 'better christian' but you have to look at what image of hillary an evangelical voter might have. you could say hillary took x amount of dollars from the saudis, for example, and trump didnt, therefore, i couldnt vote for her. also, i'm not sure a persons acual character is necessarily high on their lexo scale. i tend to think that a person (i think this is both sides) will vote for someone who they know is flawed, so long as they represent the actual policy positions they most hold dear. someone could use this to justify support of someone like roy moore, or might have overlooked bill clintons philandering back in the day. 

The current Pope has not supported Trump over other candidates.Current Pope says that Pro Life is more than just about the unborn—health care, social justice, the environment—but that falls on deaf ears of many of the Catholics I know. Hearts are full of fear.

[mcsluggo]

4 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

An issue I have always had with the "pro-life" movement is that not only are they anti-abortion but they only want to reduce it in one way and that is outright making it against the law.  They seem to thumb their nose or outright ignore the fact that things like better sex ed & contraception actually go a long way in reducing abortions, but these same people seem to be against those things as well.  

 

This country is likely never going back to a pre-Roe v. Wade society.  It isn't happening.  So why not at least come together on other ways to reduce the numbers?

 

You have a guy like Trump, who obviously likes to sleep around with anyone he finds attractive. Ok, whatever....but you'd think of all people, he'd be one advocating for sex ed & better access to low cost birth control.

 

 

 i am somebody that is pretty divided on the abortion and choice issue ... but NOTHING makes me more more pro-choice than many of the tactics of anti-abortion zealots (the giant posters of fetuses and scereaming at people going into planned parenthood clinics... and all the other stereotypical badness...  but, its always too easy to see "the other side" as monolithic. 

 

I belong to a Catholic Church congregation that focuses most (or at least a good portion) of its anti-abortion energies and treasures at care for pregnant women and women with young children.  And also tries hard to provide care to women who have had abortions, and are having a rough time with it ... 

 

there is plenty of "march for life" brigades, and the like... but it is not ALL that.  Still, this is an issue that is fraught with too many raw and open nerves.  

[No Excuses]

25 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

An issue I have always had with the "pro-life" movement is that not only are they anti-abortion but they only want to reduce it in one way and that is outright making it against the law.  They seem to thumb their nose or outright ignore the fact that things like better sex ed & contraception actually go a long way in reducing abortions, but these same people seem to be against those things as well. 

 

 

It makes perfect sense when you consider the real end-goal of the anti-abortion crowd. They view women as nothing more than baby-making factories, who should stay at home, raise kids and be submissive/obedient to their husbands.

 

Contraception and better sex ed come with the liberation of women's sexuality and is vital to their economic empowerment. Adult women, who are free to work and free to **** without being baby incubators is very bad news for social conservatives and their suffocating, banal vision of American society.

Edited April 24, 2018 by No Excuses

[mcsluggo]

7 minutes ago, Elessar78 said:

The current Pope has not supported Trump over other candidates.Current Pope says that Pro Life is more than just about the unborn—health care, social justice, the environment—but that falls on deaf ears of many of the Catholics I know. Hearts are full of fear.

 

sad to say... i think a (bare) majority of catholics voted for Trump.   Abortion is such a huge item in many people's minds, it just drowns out any consideration of any other issue.    

 

Hell George W Bush beat the Catholic John Kerry at the ballot box ....

 

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/04/08/catholic.voters/index.html

Quote

Nearly half of U.S. Catholics attend church regularly, and they gave Bush a 13-point lead over Kerry.

Kerry did better among Catholics who are not regular churchgoers, where he led Bush by 1 point.

 

I honestly think in many cases it is NOT a broader conservative sentiment, it is JUST abortion.  If somehow abortion were magically de-politicized, and potential politicians were allowed to call one mulligan, and just ignore that ONE issue... then Democrats would win 75%-plus of the Catholic vote.   I volunteer at the soup kitchen with a bunch of people that i am pretty sure vote monolithically Republican on the abortion issue alone.   i KNOW they abhor the anti-poor republican platform, and Trump specifically... but abortion is that important to them.   

 

Just now, No Excuses said:

 

It makes perfect sense when you consider the real end-goal of the anti-abortion crowd. They view women as nothing more than baby-making factories, who should stay at home, raise kids and be submissive and obedient to their husbands.

 

Contraception and better sex ed come with the liberation of women's sexuality and is vital to their economic empowerment. Adult women, who are free to work, **** freely and not be baby incubators is very bad news for social conservatives and their suffocating, banal vision of American society.

 

 

It is not that simple.  

[Riggo-toni]

The irony - the Old Testament appears to refute the notion that a fetus is the same value as a person. The lex talionus of Mosaic law (eye for an eye) demands the death penalty for murder, but anyone who strikes a pregnant woman in the womb so that she miscarries is only required to pay a fine. The bible would seem thus to be opposed to abortion, but not to the absolute degree "fundamentalists" believe/insist.

[AsburySkinsFan]

1 hour ago, mcsluggo said:

 

And this...is how you kill Christianity.    

Trump, “The Chosen One of God”

Well, there you have it. Yet another false profit anointing Trump, just like they did King Saul so very long ago.

23 minutes ago, Riggo-toni said:

The irony - the Old Testament appears to refute the notion that a fetus is the same value as a person. The lex talionus of Mosaic law (eye for an eye) demands the death penalty for murder, but anyone who strikes a pregnant woman in the womb so that she miscarries is only required to pay a fine. The bible would seem thus to be opposed to abortion, but not to the absolute degree "fundamentalists" believe/insist.

Well, it sends a bit of a mixed message when they have to smash babies heads against the rocks. While that isn’t directly tied to abortion, it does speak to the universal sanctity of human life.

[Zguy28]

7 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Trump, “The Chosen One of God”

Well, there you have it. Yet another false profit anointing Trump, just like they did King Saul so very long ago.

These same people would not have applied Romans 13 to Obama. I know, because I did and openly had it denied by some. It applies to all leaders.

 

And although King Saul was generally a bad king, David recognized that he was the king and honored him as God's choice despite his badness.

40 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

It makes perfect sense when you consider the real end-goal of the anti-abortion crowd. They view women as nothing more than baby-making factories, who should stay at home, raise kids and be submissive/obedient to their husbands.

 

Contraception and better sex ed come with the liberation of women's sexuality and is vital to their economic empowerment. Adult women, who are free to work and free to **** without being baby incubators is very bad news for social conservatives and their suffocating, banal vision of American society.

This is such an ignorant answer. The "anti-abortion crowd" is not so monolithic. Some of the people historically on point for women's rights and temperance have been Christians. It is not as much as used to be, I admit that. But don't believe everything you read or hear in your circles of likeminded folks.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Zguy28

[AsburySkinsFan]

22 minutes ago, Zguy28 said:

These same people would not have applied Romans 13 to Obama. I know, because I did and openly had it denied by some. It applies to all leaders.

 

And although King Saul was generally a bad king, David recognized that he was the king and honored him as God's choice despite his badness.

 

Agreed on Romans 13, but I still wonder if Paul might have written that letter differently as he sat in the Roman prision before being killed, or if he had endured the Neronian persecution. I believe it might have sounded a bit more like the editorials in Revelation.

 

As for Saul, yes David recognized that Saul was the anointed. Two points: 1) Trump wasn’t anointed king. 2) God gave Israel King Saul as a punishment for their lack of faith and their plea for a king other than God himself. 3) We aren’t Israel no matter how much some Evangelicals want to argue it.

[Zguy28]

4 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Agreed on Romans 13, but I still wonder if Paul might have written that letter differently as he sat in the Roman prision before being killed, or if he had endured the Neronian persecution. I believe it might have sounded a bit more like the editorials in Revelation.

 

As for Saul, yes David recognized that Saul was the anointed. Two points: 1) Trump wasn’t anointed king. 2) God gave Israel King Saul as a punishment for their lack of faith and their plea for a king other than God himself. 3) We aren’t Israel no matter how much some Evangelicals want to argue it.

You won't get disagreement with me on this. I believe we live in metaphorical Babylon.

[twa]

1 hour ago, Elessar78 said:

The current Pope has not supported Trump over other candidates.Current Pope says that Pro Life is more than just about the unborn—health care, social justice, the environment—but that falls on deaf ears of many of the Catholics I know. Hearts are full of fear.

 

But abortion fundamentally differs from those others, if life is denied then all the other is as well.(along with everything else)

 

1 hour ago, NoCalMike said:

An issue I have always had with the "pro-life" movement is that not only are they anti-abortion but they only want to reduce it in one way and that is outright making it against the law.  They seem to thumb their nose or outright ignore the fact that things like better sex ed & contraception actually go a long way in reducing abortions, but these same people seem to be against those things as well.  

 

This country is likely never going back to a pre-Roe v. Wade society.  It isn't happening.  So why not at least come together on other ways to reduce the numbers?

 

You have a guy like Trump, who obviously likes to sleep around with anyone he finds attractive. Ok, whatever....but you'd think of all people, he'd be one advocating for sex ed & better access to low cost birth control.

 

 

Most pro-lifers I know support birth control and sex ed in general (of course there are some that oppose it)

Most all agree abortion to save a life is allowable