Voice_of_Reason

Evaluating Jay Gruden in 2018

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On 4/4/2018 at 5:38 PM, bobandweave said:

I personally think that Jay is the best head coach this teams had since Gibbs and anyone thinking he should be on a hot seats flat out wrong. He is the first head coach since Gibbs to have back to back winning seasons. He has led the offense to be better then the majority of the league in each of his seasons no matter who he has playing. 

...

Jay Gruden is a good head coach who will no doubt go on to have more head coaching seasons if Dan makes him a scape goat this year. Jay should not in any sort of way be on the hot seat this year in my opinion. No head coach will succeed with Bruce here. As long as the offense continues to move the ball and score points then he is safe to me. This past December was the first time since 2014 that the team was playing meaningless games that month. No one should be wanting to go back to that

 

 

So what you're saying is that there's no way to separate Jay Gruden the coach from the rest of the organization.  I tried pretty hard to list out things I thought were coaching specific, not organization specific.  For example, if a team is able to get 2 possession leads, but then loses them constantly, that's a trend, and that's a coaching issue.  

 

Whether or not Jay is the best coach we've had since Gibbs I (and, he's not, Gibbs II is the best coach since we've had since Gibbs I, he made the playoffs 2 out of 4 years, one a playoff game, and the rosters he had weren't exactly filled with excessive talent. Marty was also better.) is pretty immaterial.

 

The question was, how are you going to evaluate Jay Gruden in 2018?  Not a justification of why he is or is not on the hot seat.  Does he have to show you anything this year, show any improvement in any area or result, or are you essentially saying that because of the rest of the organization, nothing else really matters, he's a good coach, and that's that?  Which is fine if that's your opinion. I personally want to see some improvement in the areas I've listed, as I believe they are coaching things he can improve on. 

 

 

On 4/4/2018 at 6:07 PM, dcdiscokid said:

I think an understated thing about Jay is his ability to deal with the circus that is the Redskins.  I think a lot of coaches would struggle with the crap pile this org continually seems to create.  He is very cool under pressure, and seems to be able to let things out of his control roll off his back.  Not saying he doesn't get pissed, just he is focused on football things, and seems very good at distancing himself from the circus.  Which again makes him the right coach for us right now at least.

Maybe, but how does that effect his ability to know when to call a TO, hire coaches (Joe Barry is the worst coordinating hire in the history of the NFL), or figure out how to hold players accountable for consistent repeatable mistakes?  

 

 

On 4/4/2018 at 7:22 PM, Burgold said:

For me, I want to see at minimum a playoff win. That said, I see the team as constituted and coached having a range of 5-9 wins. I'd love to be surprised and have one of those everything breaks our way seasons where we grab 10. I'd hate it if we get another stinker where we go 5 or below. Regardless, I don't see Jay meeting my playoff win criteria this year. I think integrating a new QB, a new running back, is tough and we're leaning on a D that before the injuries surprised, but never was great. 

 

So, what would make me happy in 2018? What would make me grade out Jay Gruden as a keeper? I think we need a strong start and a strong end. Under the Kirk years, we struggled with both. If Gruden can prove that wasn't him and he has the wherewithal to rocket out of the gates and not choke during the stretch run of games, I'll be okay with him.

 

Also, I need him to be much closer to nine wins than five.

I completely agree with all of this.  Strong start, strong finish, competitive, and not have any stinkers along the way. 

 

Roster and injuries will play a part, but they did win 7 games last year, they possibly upgraded at QB and WR, with RB a possible as well, and the defense shoudl get a piece or two as well.  

 

 

On 4/4/2018 at 9:59 PM, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I agree with everyone saying that Jay really shouldn’t be on the hot seat.  I also fully agree that you have to credit the guy for how he’s handled the circus in Ashburn.  He’s the perfect personality for this setup.

 

What I want to see from him:

 

A. Great emphasis on running the football.  It has to be better, both scheme and talent.  It has to be a priority.  Ultimately he just has to figure that out some way some how.

 

B. A more hardline approach to training camp and the preseason.  He doesn’t need to be Marty, but I think it has to be more than what it’s been in years past.

1. Any coach is entering season 5 with his best season being a 9-7 campaign and has missed the playoffs 2 years in a row, is essentially .500 over the last 3 years is on the hot seat. And I'm pretty sure it is REALLY hurting Snyder that the Eagles won the SB this year.  And they were pretty terrible coming out of the Chip Kelley years, rebuilt quickly, and won.  I've got to think that at some point, he's going to lose patience with everybody.  Which automatically puts Jay (and I think Bruce) on the hot seat.

 

2. I actually don't care what his approach is in training camp as long as it works.  What he has been doing hasn't really been working.  And I don't want it to take until week 4 or 5 to get Alex Smith comfortable.  Alex was (I think) 11-5 in his first year in KC.  He's a vet, Gruden's system is from the Reid tree, so it shouldn't really be that hard to pick up.  If the team starts slowly, specifically offensively, that's the 5th year of a trend, and a bad one.  

 

On 4/5/2018 at 7:43 AM, bobandweave said:

Just looking at that list, Mike Tomlin(SB), Dan Quinn, John Harbaugh (SB, he's a douche, but a consistently good coach), Mike McCarthy(SB), Pete Carroll(SB) and Ron Rivera are all unquestionably better HC's than Jay Gruden. And all are ranked below him.   Lists like this are kindof meaningless in general, and this has some things on it that don't even come close to passing the laugh test.  

 

You're really going to rate Jay, who's overall record is 28-35-1 for a .445 winner percentage is rated higher than Tomlin, who's 116-60 for .659 winning percentage, with a SB, the list is just stupid. I pick Tomlin because he's 2 back from Jay.  I know, Tomlin has a really difficult time managing the clock (so does Jay), but his teams don't lay eggs, are always competitive, and are prepared.  He gets a bad rap at times, but come on, that's ridiculous.  Maybe he chokes in the playoffs.  At least his teams get there consistently.  Same with Pete Carroll.  He had his teams in the SB 2 consecutive years, and minus one very timely INT, he's got back-to-back SB wins.  And he's 18th on the list.

 

I know that this is a week-to-week thing, but sorry, the list is dumb.  It's where analytics fail.  And I spent 20 years in analytics, so I know how sometimes all these metrics and statistics and stuff can lead to the wrong answer.  

 

On 4/5/2018 at 10:48 AM, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Specifically and most confidently I can say that I truly doubt we'll ever establish a strong running game under Gruden. I don't necessarily care either if the offense works like it has since he arrived. 

I dunno, they've been talking about it so adamantly, maybe they'll stick to it.  I think there's a good chance they fix this one, actually.  Of the list of things I laid out, this is one I actually feel most confident they will fix.  

 

 

On 4/5/2018 at 11:16 AM, Warhead36 said:

I'm a Gruden supporter. I think he's a solid quality NFL Head Coach. Is he potentially special like a Bellicheck or maybe McVay? Probably not, but you don't need a coach of that caliber to win a Super Bowl. I don't think Pederson in Philly is special. Neither are Harbaugh, Tomlin, Carroll etc.

 

With that said, using this year as a basis to judge Gruden is tough. He'll have a new QB and the roster is still behind the 8 ball. If we go 8-8 that's a good year.

Pederson took a backup QB who'd flamed out in multiple stops, and won the SB.  Also lost his HOF Left Tackle, a RB, and a couple defensive players along the way.  He should have been the coach of the year last year.  I'm happy for McVay, but Pederson was Bellichick like last year, and even beat the master in the SB.  

 

I also disagree about Harbaugh, Tomlin and Carroll.  They are not Billy B.  But they are absolutely on the tier right under that.  

 

But getting back to the question, is there really no way to judge the HC this year because of the changes on offense?  So, the "excuse" is already built in, "Hard Schedule, new QB/RB/WR" so 7-9 is acceptable again? 

 

 

17 hours ago, Wildbunny said:

Good post VoR. I think you hit it on most of those wishes, and I share them.

 

Though I tend to believe that points 2,4,5 and 6 and more linked to players than coaches. Something like 70% players, 30% coaches.

I might give you 2, the running game.  4, 5 and 6 are coaching.  If you are talented enough to get leads, then you should be able to hold them or expand them, and not constantly give up leads.  If it happens once or twice, eh, ok.  But it's a 3 year consistent trend.  That's coaching and game management. If not 100%,m then a whole lot of it is.  

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12 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

I dunno, they've been talking about it so adamantly, maybe they'll stick to it.  I think there's a good chance they fix this one, actually.  Of the list of things I laid out, this is one I actually feel most confident they will fix.  

 

 

 

Based on what? No offense led by Gruden in the NFL has ever been ranked higher than 18th in rushing yards. In fact, it's been 20th or worse (30th twice) in 5 of his 7 years in yards/attempt. There is nothing to indicate that simply wanting a better rushing attack will result in it happening next year. He's basically 0-for-7 running an NFL offense in establishing a top-half rushing offense.  

 

I'm not too concerned. I think teams can win passing the ball. I'm just saying that suddenly being 12th in rushing seems less likely than him studying enough to understand when to call timeouts, etc. 

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The only meaningful way he will be evaluated this season, or SHOULD be, is if he makes the playoffs.  I dont care if the run game improves but the pass rush suffers.  Or if the defense improves but the passing game takes a backwards step.  If Gruden fails to make the playoffs, that will mean he has made the playoffs 1 time in 5 years, and that is dreadful in the NFL.  No matter what else happened during the season, he should be canned if that were to happen.  Theres only so many seasons you can make excuses, genuine or not.  The better teams of the NFL dont have to make excuses.

 

Playoffs or bust.

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4 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Based on what? No offense led by Gruden in the NFL has ever been ranked higher than 18th in rushing yards. In fact, it's been 20th or worse (30th twice) in 5 of his 7 years in yards/attempt. There is nothing to indicate that simply wanting a better rushing attack will result in it happening next year. He's basically 0-for-7 running an NFL offense in establishing a top-half rushing offense.  

 

I'm not too concerned. I think teams can win passing the ball. I'm just saying that suddenly being 12th in rushing seems less likely than him studying enough to understand when to call timeouts, etc. 

Based on the fact they’ve been talking about it for 4 months. And they look to be drafting a RB early.  If they don’t, maybe I change my mind on this.  But I think they’re going to fix this because they are going to emphasize it...

5 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

The only meaningful way he will be evaluated this season, or SHOULD be, is if he makes the playoffs.  I dont care if the run game improves but the pass rush suffers.  Or if the defense improves but the passing game takes a backwards step.  If Gruden fails to make the playoffs, that will mean he has made the playoffs 1 time in 5 years, and that is dreadful in the NFL.  No matter what else happened during the season, he should be canned if that were to happen.  Theres only so many seasons you can make excuses, genuine or not.  The better teams of the NFL dont have to make excuses.

 

Playoffs or bust.

I see your point but trying to separate things in Grudens control vs what are not.  He can’t make Bruce Allen spend money and get players.  So I can’t hold him entirely responsible for the record. 

 

But I can judge him on the things I listed above. And I tried to make that list as things mostly in his control as a HC 

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1 minute ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Based on the fact they’ve been talking about it for 4 months. And they look to be drafting a RB early.  If they don’t, maybe I change my mind on this.  But I think they’re going to fix this because they are going to emphasize it...

 

1 minute ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Based on the fact they’ve been talking about it for 4 months. And they look to be drafting a RB early.  If they don’t, maybe I change my mind on this.  But I think they’re going to fix this because they are going to emphasize it...

 

OK, I guess we will see. I don't put much stock in that because what else is he going to say when asked about it? I look at the 2013 and 2014 Bengals. In Gruden's final season, they rushed for 1,750 yards and 3.6 yards/carry. In the next season with a new OC they rushed for 2,150 and 4.4 yards/carry. I just think his offense has philosophical elements that limit the attempts and effectiveness of running the ball. 

 

Now, if we run Smith 5 times per game, a lot of this could change...we saw what RO does to an offense back in 2012. 

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Great post pretty fair too - this from someone who has been at complete odds with you most of the time in terms of Jay!  :cheers:  Well done. Following are my thoughts. 

 

On 4/4/2018 at 4:57 PM, Voice_of_Reason said:

Edit  

 

How are you going to evaluate the Head Coach in 2018? 

 

Put another way, at the end of the season, what has Gruden had to have accomplished in order to be retained for 2019?  

 

Here are my answers:

1.       The opener and everything that goes into it.  So far, Jay is 0-4 in openers, and they haven’t really been pretty.  He’s faced questions about how much he plays his starters in the pre-season, and why the team doesn’t seem to be ready week 1, but is typically ready weeks 2 and 3.

Edit

 

The trend has to change.  Regardless of result, I'm looking for improvement. Preferably a win, though. (I'm also guessing they open on the road because they've opened at home for ages...)

 

I also want to see the team start better. Not going to put a number on things. But I want to see a more inspired effort right out of the gate. If they lose kicking and swinging **** happens. But I agree their efforts on opening day has been less than inspiring. 

 

On 4/4/2018 at 4:57 PM, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

2.       Improved run game.  They’ve made a HUGE emphasis about getting new Running backs, and improving the run game.  Are they actually able to accomplish that?  Or are they going to average <2 yards on first down carries?  I believe (and have believed) that this has been a combination of personnel and scheme, so I’m looking for improvement.

 

Again can;t argue here except to echo what some others have said - have we really had the talent? I do not think that's the entire solution. Jay has not been a big run guy even when he was in Cinn. I don;t think we need to see more running per say, just more effective running and better timed running. Very few times has the team gotten up by more than one score and been able to play ball control. I get keeping your foot on the peddle but don;t give the other team extra possessions. Make them earn it. Now some of that is defenses giving up late leads but he owns some of that too. I am excited to see year 2 of Manusky. I liked what we saw in the first 5 gms before all the injuries. 

 

On 4/4/2018 at 4:57 PM, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

3.       End of half/game situations.  These situations have been poor for the Redskins for the last 4 years.  I’m looking to see the 2 minute offense step up, and the 2 minute defense get better and not just allow teams to walk right down the field and score. 

 

 

The 2 min offense have actually been pretty good. Where the problem has been is end of half and game Def. Kirk and the offense have generated more scoring in the final minutes of a game than people realize. Much of that is because we still lose due to the defense not stopping people enough. Just a few stops by the D the last few years and this team could have had 10 wins all 3 yrs without changing anything else. 

 

On 4/4/2018 at 4:57 PM, Voice_of_Reason said:

4.       Don’t blown leads.  Cooley did the breakdown earlier this year, but the amount of times the ‘Skins blow a 10 point plus lead to let the opponent tie or take the lead is astounding.  They still win some of these games.  However, when it happens as regularly as it does, it’s a trend, and that’s coaching.  If we get up by 10 or 14 points, I want to see the ‘Skins maintain that lead. Right now I expect that the other team is going to go right down the field and score to pull the game back to one possession.  NOTE: Some leeway will be given to teams like Green Bay and New Orleans, who can come back on anybody because Rodgers and Brees are HOF QBs who do it to everybody.  Though blowing the 13 point lead to the Saints last year was really, really bad. 

 

To me this is the same item as #3. 

 

On 4/4/2018 at 4:57 PM, Voice_of_Reason said:

5.       This is somewhat related to #4, but when they get a lead, I want to see them put opponents away so we’re not white-knuckling and hoping we can get a stop.  Win a few games by 10+ points.  They really COULD have done this the last couple of years, but they just haven’t been able to hold leads very well.  Blow out a few teams.

 

I answered this in the run game question. But I agree. Get up and stay up. Every game does not have to be filled with last minute drama! I know my heart would appreciate that. 

 

On 4/4/2018 at 4:57 PM, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

6.       No duds.  In each of the last 3 years, at the end of the year, the team has had a game to stay in or advance their playoff position and has laid a complete egg.  2015 it was the Monday Night game against a pretty bad Dallas team.  2016 it was Arizona, Carolina, and New York Giants.  2017, with their season on life support, they got BLOWN OUT in Dallas by an average Cowboys team.  That has to stop.  Again, some say that’s been on the QB in the past, and if it stops happening, then happy to blame Kirk for anything, including the Kennedy assassination.  

 

 

i want to see consistency. We come out on fire for some games - even important games. But then others they are flat. This goes back to the opening day thing. I never want to lose but if you lose playing your heart out, fine. It's not always going to go your way. But sometimes it looks like they are all sleep walking out there. 

 

On 4/4/2018 at 4:57 PM, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

7.      Record.  At the end of the day, this is a bottom line business, and the team has to win.  Context is everything, but this is year 5 of Jay/Allen, and they need to win. Context is everything, so I’ll be looking hard at the things above as well as the record. 

 

 

 

I can't hold the record fully against him right now. There are too many moving parts. To me I still do not think Bruce is giving him the players he needs. He is doing better than some say but there is still a lot to be desired. 

 

In the end I want to see a team that works it's ass off for 60 minutes every game of every season. That all the players leave it all on the field every game, win or lose. That would probably be my biggest complaint about Jay so far. Some of that is on the players. You need to be somewhat self starting . But it's also his job to motivate guys and make them understand half-assing it will not fly. Sit guys down if they are going through the motions - and I don;t care who they are. 

 

Good discussion though. Thanks for starting the thread. 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

So what you're saying is that there's no way to separate Jay Gruden the coach from the rest of the organization.  I tried pretty hard to list out things I thought were coaching specific, not organization specific.  For example, if a team is able to get 2 possession leads, but then loses them constantly, that's a trend, and that's a coaching issue.  

 

If the team is up by 2 possessions and gives them up there is a reason for that. Most recently it was a total collapse of the defense or an ill advised INT or turnover. Do you actually think that Jay sits there calling plays that says "Okay guys now is the time to go out there and have Kirk throw the ball to the other guy" or maybe you think he's drawing up the "Its time for Chris Thompson to fumble" plays? OR on the other hand maybe to you Jay sits there and thinks "hmmm I have a grand on us winning by 3, okay gotta have the defense lay down this next drive".....I'm joking but only partly. Blaming the coach for things out of his control like

 

1. Players on the team = That blame belongs to Bruce which is why I am overly harsh on him, He earned that

 

2. Performance of the players on the team = Blame the players when they do stupid things like throwing 13 picks, or Kirk leading the league in lost yards due to sacks this past season like he did

 

Jay calls the plays. The players execute them. If Jay calls a great play and the players fail to execute them then only someone with a complete lack of understanding puts that on the head coach like that in my opinion

 

 

Quote

 

Whether or not Jay is the best coach we've had since Gibbs I (and, he's not, Gibbs II is the best coach since we've had since Gibbs I, he made the playoffs 2 out of 4 years, one a playoff game, and the rosters he had weren't exactly filled with excessive talent. Marty was also better.) is pretty immaterial.

 

The question was, how are you going to evaluate Jay Gruden in 2018?  Not a justification of why he is or is not on the hot seat.  Does he have to show you anything this year, show any improvement in any area or result, or are you essentially saying that because of the rest of the organization, nothing else really matters, he's a good coach, and that's that?  Which is fine if that's your opinion. I personally want to see some improvement in the areas I've listed, as I believe they are coaching things he can improve on. 

 

I did answer your questions but since you didn't get it - If the offense completely denigrates and can't move the ball this year then I will blame Jay Gruden this year - That's it. That's his role. Just like Sean McVay in LA. That's it. Clearly with 4000 yard passers he is executing the offense very well. Now since you brought up your post let me break it down

 

1. The opener and everything that goes into it. 

 

This actually means nothing and for you to place any emphasis on it shows me that you aren't looking at history. This century between 2014 and 2000 the teams won the opening game 9 times - 2012~2011~2010~2007~2005~2004~2003~2002~2000

 

After those 9 times those teams

 

2011 - Won the opener - Won 4 more games that year
2010 - Won the opener - Won 5 more games that year
2004 - Won the opener - Won 5 more games that year
2003 - Won the opener - Won 4 more games that year
2002 - Won the opener - Won 6 more games that year

 

So 5 times winning game one meant they would have a losing season. 4 times winning that opener meant they would have a winning record. What exactly does that mean? Nothing at all. Winning the opener is nice and they should win that game but more times then not its not an indication of how the season will go.

 

2. Improved run game. - Its well known that Bruce makes the decisions on who is signed and not signed. Blaming Gruden for the RB execution isn't fair. That's Bruce's fault. Since Jay got here the most expensive RB in terms of price or draft capital the coach has had is a fourth round pick last year and the rest a bunch of undrafted FA's and scrubs. Garbage in, garbage out. The problem with this argument is if Bruce won't address the issue how is that on Jay? What coaches out there turn chicken **** into chicken salad outside of Belichick? None. Never said Jay was Bill. All I said is he's a good coach.


3. End of half/game situations - Your right but this is because of the lack of talent on the field and poor execution from the players on it

 

4. Don’t blown leads - Again when your QB leads the league in yards lost due to sacks taken like Kirk did in 2017 and your QB throws 13 INTs and adds another 6 Fumbles to that what are you actually expecting? Jay doesn't call plays where they turn the ball over like that. And he doesn't call the plays for the Defenses that gave up those leads. Jay doesn't control the Defense, That is on Manusky.

 

Jay's whole thing is the offense. Just my opinion sorry if it doesn't fall into the narrative that Jay Gruden sucks

 

 

Edited by bobandweave

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7 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Just looking at that list, Mike Tomlin(SB), Dan Quinn, John Harbaugh (SB, he's a douche, but a consistently good coach), Mike McCarthy(SB), Pete Carroll(SB) and Ron Rivera are all unquestionably better HC's than Jay Gruden. And all are ranked below him.   Lists like this are kindof meaningless in general, and this has some things on it that don't even come close to passing the laugh test.  

 

So to you Barry Switzer is a better coach then any non winning Superbowl coach lol

 

 

7 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I know that this is a week-to-week thing, but sorry, the list is dumb.  It's where analytics fail.  And I spent 20 years in analytics, so I know how sometimes all these metrics and statistics and stuff can lead to the wrong answer.  

 

Sorry you don't like the website but others do and while you don't appreciate the role that Jay has, remember he lost two 1000 yard receivers last season and still his QB threw for more then 4000 yards. And that was on a team playing the hardest schedule in the league, and after he lost his star TE, and after he had to have 9 different RBs start a game last season. Coaches are not graded simply on playoff appearances and super bowl appearances. After suffering through an enormous amount of offensive line injuries the fact the offense continue to roll week after week is a testament to his coaching ability.  

 

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It's not high on my list, but I think Jay needs to change his body language/attitude on the sidelines.  I know he wears his emotions on his sleeve most of the time, but I think that his "eye rolls" and his "oh no, here we go again" face should be reserved for fans in the ES Game Day Thread.  I think that kinda negative behavior bleeds into the team psyche at times.  Need better mental discipline from our skipper.  

 

Instead of rolling his eyes at a dumb false start/offsides/late hit penalty, I wish he would chew the player's ass out and make them run the steps in practice until they vomit.  That would clear up a lot of our mental mistakes.  Need more discipline and accountability.  

 

I think Jay's seat is pretty hot this season.  But I could see a scenario where we play better/look better, miss the playoffs, and he still gets the last year of his extension as a make or break type year.  

 

I really like Jay.  I hope it works out.  I give us one chance in ten.

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Posted (edited)

The Skins slow starts, and continuing mental errors in play using the season, might be a result of Gruden being a little too relaxed

 

Gruden appears to be an easy-going coach, and maybe even a "player's coach" -- I often feel that style is not that helpful, if the Skins ever hope to eliminate some of the mistakes and sloppy play we see from Gruden's teams.

 

Sorry, but to me it seems like the perennially-winning Head Coaches tend to be somewhat intense, sometimes fire-breathers, basically someone you don't want to get on the wrong side of.   I just don't get that from Jay, even during the game.  Moreover I don't think Gruden is viewed as all that scary by his players.  (For example, I still can't believe that DJax was able to give Gruden a "purple-nurple" -- could you imagine someone trying that with Belicheck, Parcels, Tomlin, ... Landry, Shula?)

 

So, how far does this type relaxed mindset impact the preparations of the team, or how accountable he holds people to targets, or whether those targets were set  all that high to begin with?  

 

It's just something I pick up from Gruden, in many of his interviews that makes me wonder about the overall impact.  Sure, his easy-going manner might make it easier to co-exist with the Skins FO, and be charming in a folksy way with the press -- but how much does it impact how he relates with the players and staff in their training, preparations, and execution of the game plan?

 

I'll concede this may simply be somewhat of a philosophical difference on coaching style,, so I'll just watch to see if Gruden's way can deliver results.  We're now getting a track record on which to evaluate after so many seasons.

 

However, the Skins inability to establish a running game is something on Gruden.  He's the one that switched over to a "power" style of running game, and he and his staff can't seem to deliver on it.  Even before the Oline was decimated during the 2017 season, the Skins running game has gone steadily downhill since Gruden took over.  (Frankly, Gruden should have looked for a better RB coach than Randy Jordan.)

 

Which gets me to the last point -- if Gruden lobbied the FO to hire def. coach Barry, is that not a little bit on him too?  And who really made the decision to let Barry go, Gruden or the front office?  Gruden probably needs to be held accountable for the coaching staff he put in place, with HIS choices.

 

BOTTOM LINE:  Gruden can't afford to allow the Skins to have a so-so training camp, and to take it too easy during pre-season, and then open the season, while still getting up to speed.  I think conditions have changed, and Gruden's team will need to get a racing start out of the gates for the 2018 season, or Jay's seat will get really hot, really quickly.

Edited by Wyvern

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1 hour ago, Wyvern said:

BOTTOM LINE:  Gruden can't afford to allow the Skins to have a so-so training camp, and to take it too easy during pre-season, and then open the season, while still getting up to speed.  I think conditions have changed, and Gruden's team will need to get a racing start out of the gates for the 2018 season, or Jay's seat will get really hot, really quickly.

 

I think I agree...here's the thing. If there are any benefits to a "players' coach" then you have to wonder if more intensity/hard-ass tendencies would negate that? I don't know enough to know, but if they players play hard for him, etc. because of his demeanor and personality, you'd risk knocking that down for whatever benefit you get from being intense. 

 

The other thing is, if it's not in his nature, he won't do it well. I've played sports for scary coaches and nice coaches. When they try to be something they're not, it's obvious and players don't buy in. 

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Posted (edited)

I do not think JG is a good head coach and his record supports this. Last year he was 1 and 5 in the division. Has he ever beat a real good team or won a playoff game? Do his teams even make the playoffs? He has a miserable record on prime time games and Mon nite is a joke. His teams are not ready to play on opening day and I do not know our opening day record but I would bet it is not good. After 5 years his team still makes the same mistakes over and over. He cannot run or stop the run. His special teams are poor. I think he would make a good O cord or a QB coach but a HC, no.

Edited by 50yrSKINSfan

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2 hours ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

I do not think JG is a good head coach and his record supports this. Last year he was 1 and 5 in the division. Has he ever beat a real good team or won a playoff game? Do his teams even make the playoffs? He has a miserable record on prime time games and Mon nite is a joke. His teams are not ready to play on opening day and I do not know our opening day record but I would bet it is not good. After 5 years his team still makes the same mistakes over and over. He cannot run or stop the run. His special teams are poor. I think he would make a good O cord or a QB coach but a HC, no.

 

I love Jay for some reason, but there's really nothing in this post that is incorrect. My hope is that he enhances his strengths (there are some - passing game, control of the locker room, etc.) and improves on his weaknesses. 

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Having been known as a Jay criticizers until the injuries mounted to staggering levels last year I moved into the hold column and eventually into the buy column. His comments on Kirk throwing the deep ball shows me he was not completely satisfied with how Kirk was running the system and his knack for wanting plays to be perfect frustrated Jay. Count me among the truly excited to see Jay with a new signal caller and one that appears to be OK with plays breaking down or making adjustments at the LOS. 

 

Is this the wrong thread. Well I don't know if Buy or Sell, hold even was fair to the Coach last year, but for now..........

 

 

I am firmly in the Buy column, :rofl89::bye:

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On 4/4/2018 at 6:15 PM, HigSkin said:

I'm a big Jay advocate and think one thing this team needs to zip up in 2018 is winning at home.  We have a 78-80-1 at home 4 worst in the league.

Playing at FedEx is essentially a road game, we'll never have a true home field advantage playing their.

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On 4/4/2018 at 6:15 PM, HigSkin said:

I'm a big Jay advocate and think one thing this team needs to zip up in 2018 is winning at home.  We have a 78-80-1 at home 4 worst in the league.

 

Is that really the worst home record in the league? It's not good...but I can't believe that a ~ .500 record is the WORST in a league that has some pretty crappy teams in it. 

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1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Is that really the worst home record in the league? It's not good...but I can't believe that a ~ .500 record is the WORST in a league that has some pretty crappy teams in it. 

 

"4th worst" so there are 3 teams below the Skins.  

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Posted (edited)

Skins are the 26th ranked team, in terms of 10-year record. While they're not as bad as the Ram, Browns, Bucs, Raiders, Jaguars, and Lions.... they're low/mediocre like the Bills.

 

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/gallery/every-nfl-teams-10-year-record-ranked-32-1-010417

 

When I went to NFL team rankings, and just took data from the Gruden era (2014 to present), the team was 20th ranked in home wins (18-15), under Gruden, and 21st ranked in overall wins (28-36-1 for 43.8% winning rate).  Most ways you slice the data, the Skins under Gruden are very mediocre, average to slightly below average-- generally hovering around the 50% mark.

 

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/trends/win_trends/?sc=all_games&range=yearly_since_2014

 

Maybe 2018 will be different?  After all, Gruden has had some time to set up his team and staff.  (Frankly, I suspect the media will soon mention how much his seat is starting to heat up!

Edited by Wyvern

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Jay has his QB now. There are no more excuses.  Great and even good coaches, can overcome injuries.

 

Jay's only playoff season, was it more of the Skins being worthy of the playoffs?  Or was it more of us, just taking advantage of the collapsed NFC East that year?  I say the latter, 

 

Jay feels the QB is what held us back. Well, that's been rectified. He better go at least .500 or else.  Accepting a .500 is acknowledging the change at QB and the possible killer schedule.  Another losing season is unacceptable.   That would be Jay's 3rd losing season in 5 years, 2nd in a row.  One playoff birth in 5 years.  The time is now for Jay to go at least .500 this year and then he better make the playoffs in 2019.   If he can't go .500 this year; then it's time for a new era.

 

The Jay era is becoming like the Norv era. 

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8 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said:

 

Jay feels the QB is what held us back.

Where did you hear this?

 

This sounds like a case of selective reading/hearing.

 

Jay has never had a running game or defense, I find it very hard to believe that he thinks the QB of all positions was holding the team back.

 

 

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9 hours ago, steve09ru said:

Playing at FedEx is essentially a road game, we'll never have a true home field advantage playing their.

playing at fedex is a road game because this team blows.  It was loud as hell during Gibbs 2.0 playoff run years

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On 07/04/2018 at 2:37 AM, bobandweave said:

Since Jay got here the most expensive RB in terms of price or draft capital the coach has had is a fourth round pick last year and the rest a bunch of undrafted FA's and scrubs.

Except for Matt Jones. 3rd round in 2015.

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