SWFLSkins

Jay Gruden: Buy or Sell 2017 edition

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4 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

 

None of those guys are offensive guys and all the teams are known for their defense. 

 

Each has had an impact on the culture of their franchises despite not being hands on at either offense or defense as far as playcalling. They set a tone so to speak and are leaders for their teams. I never get that sense from gruden. They also do a lot of the other aspects of the coaching game correctly and their teams are typically always well prepared and well coached. 

 

Im not sure Gruden could steer the ship of any of those teams to the SB in the years they won it. 

 

Lile i said, Gruden used to be able to fall back on being so hands on with the offense but the offense isn’t anything impressive so far this season so he needs to get that together or what he brings to the table is fast diminishing 

Actually when Tomlin first took over, he kept Lebeau in charge of the defense. His best success was early on with largely the same roster that Cowher had. He's a good coach but I don't think he's that much better than Gruden. But his FO supplies him with good talent and his guys play hard for him. Kinda like, the Redskins are becoming now. But he makes tons of tactical errors.

 

Harbaugh is such a good leader that his team hasn't made the playoffs in forever and just lost at home to the Bears.

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1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

I disagree. We scored on our opening drive. We had a 17-0 lead. We looked good at the start. Not totally sure what happened after that.

 

But if you look around the league, every game is close. So either every team's coach takes their foot off the gas, or its just how the league is now.

 

And you're comparing Gruden to 2 Hall of Famers and one sure fire HOF-er. He doesn't have to be that good to win a Super Bowl. This is the same NFL where guys like John Harbaugh, Mike Tomlin, and Pete Carroll have won rings. Gruden is just as good as any of those guys.

No he isn't.  Those coaches were a little more successful in their first 4 years; especially the first 2.

 

Gruden is comparable to say his former boss, Marvin Lewis or maybe Detroit's Wayne Fontes.

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2 minutes ago, SWFLSkins said:

 

 

Never took it that way. To say others don't watch Football is really indicating they don't know what they are seeing in your view. How we learn is seeing things as others see them. Here's the thing, Gruden seems like a good guy, engaging, funny, smart.....but where is the fire....where was Jay when VD got jobbed. Any great Coach would have been livid and in the Refs ear....maybe he just doesn't do it that way....maybe it will work his way. I hope it does. I hope he is beyond avg. or slightly above, but just posting north of .500 ain't good enough. Winning teams get to 9-7 or better, they than go north of that when they learn how to win at that level. Will Jay ever be able to get to that level, playoffs year in and year out? I hope so. 

 

When I say Sell,  I don't mean fire or replace, I mean like the market, His stock is in Sell mode until the fundamentals improve and a Buy is put in. How patient is the Sell mode before it turns into Dump mode? Well that is on Bruce and Snyder, The guys who have Crashed the market before and I don't trust them. I would SELL< SELL< SELL those two.

Oh. Okay.

 

Honestly, I was nonplussed by that (I did think that you meant "fire" by "sell").

 

On the topic: this is the ideal situation for Jay.  He's dealing with a team (and fanbase) starved for success.  Therefore, he has time to grow into the job.  He's still got a ways to go, but he has produced tangible results in his tenure here.  Has he Won BIG?  No.  Not yet.  But It's entirely possible that he does do just that.

 

Conversely, Jay is the ideal Coach for us.  He has put up with Ashburn's nonsense (better than most) without so much as a peep to the paper or the 6 o'clock news.  LET'S ALL REMEMBER: this Redskins job was viewed as radioactive by talented Coaches around The League.  Not to mention, him cutting his Head Coaching teeth here builds in a natural degree of loyalty to us in him.  And I want a Homegrown Coach - NOT a hired gun (eg Shanahan).

 

Give him time!  Belichick FAILED before he succeeded. 

 

I simply believe that if we give Jay Gruden enough time, then we'll all be pleased with the results.

 

 

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I'm in @Warhead36's camp.  

 

Guys calling Jay an idiot are on the "grass is greener on the other side" kinda thinking - and I don't believe that's true.  Jay IS easily as good as John Harbaugh. 

 

Look, I work with a lotta Ravens fans.  And let me tell ya; when we're slippin' they pull NO PUNCHES.  But ever since we went to Baltimore and Beat them, I've told them our Program is better.  Of course they're not gonna agree with me, but they didn't squawk too loud.  Because they know it's true!  

 

Or let me say it another way: where does Jay rank in the pecking order of Head Men in The Division?  I've got him no worse than 2nd.

 

And you'd get rid of him?

Edited by Diehard Otis

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9 minutes ago, Diehard Otis said:

Oh. Okay.

 

Honestly, I was nonplussed by that (I did think that you meant "fire" by "sell").

 

On the topic: this is the ideal situation for Jay.  He's dealing with a team (and fanbase) starved for success.  Therefore, he has time to grow into the job.  He's still got a ways to go, but he has produced tangible results in his tenure here.  Has he Won BIG?  No.  Not yet.  But It's entirely possible that he does do just that.

 

Conversely, Jay is the ideal Coach for us.  He has put up with Ashburn's nonsense (better than most) without so much as a peep to the paper or the 6 o'clock news.  LET'S ALL REMEMBER: this Redskins job was viewed as radioactive by talented Coaches around The League.  Not to mention, him cutting his Head Coaching teeth here builds in a natural degree of loyalty to us in him.  And I want a Homegrown Coach - NOT a hired gun (eg Shanahan).

 

Give him time!  Belichick FAILED before he succeeded. 

 

I simply believe that if we give Jay Gruden enough time, then we'll all be pleased with the results.

 

 

 

Maybe HOLD would be a better call. And right now the Giants are beating Denver in Denver 17-3 so...........hahahaa

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8 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said:

No he isn't.  Those coaches were a little more successful in their first 4 years; especially the first 2.

 

Gruden is comparable to say his former boss, Marvin Lewis or maybe Detroit's Wayne Fontes.

They inherited MUCH better situations. The Ravens, Seahawks, and Steelers were all pretty much playoff regulars when those guys were hired. Hell the Steelers had won the Super Bowl like two years before Tomlin took over.

 

Gruden inherited an absolute mess. In the five years before he took over the Skins were: 4-12, 6-10, 5-11, 10-6, and 3-13. In his first year he was 4-12 because the QB situation was a mess. Since he got to use his QB we've gone 9-7, 8-7-1, and are currently 3-2. This is with one less first round pick than other teams in the same time span due to the after effects of the RG3 trade(and one other first round pick missing an entire rookie year, that's a lot of talent missing). He led us to back to back winning seasons, something even Gibbs and Shanahan couldn't do.

 

But yeah, lets get rid of him and hire Bill Cowher. Because that's definitely worked out for us in the past.

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This is a 7-9 squad.  If Gruden massages this thing to 10 wins, he should get coach of the year and an extension.

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Also, does Gruden not get credit for the development of many low to mid round draft picks? Cousins, Reed, Thompson, Moses, Crowder(although he's underachieving this year)? You can give the D development to Manusky/Tomsula fine, but some of you guys really undersell the impact Gruden has had.

 

He's a damn good coach. Above average for sure, might even be top 10.

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2 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

They inherited MUCH better situations. The Ravens, Seahawks, and Steelers were all pretty much playoff regulars when those guys were hired. Hell the Steelers had won the Super Bowl like two years before Tomlin took over.

 

Gruden inherited an absolute mess. In the five years before he took over the Skins were: 4-12, 6-10, 5-11, 10-6, and 3-13. In his first year he was 4-12 because the QB situation was a mess. Since he got to use his QB we've gone 9-7, 8-7-1, and are currently 3-2. This is with one less first round pick than other teams in the same time span due to the after effects of the RG3 trade(and one other first round pick missing an entire rookie year, that's a lot of talent missing). He led us to back to back winning seasons, something even Gibbs and Shanahan couldn't do.

 

But yeah, lets get rid of him and hire Bill Cowher. Because that's definitely worked out for us in the past.

They're not ready to believe yet.

 

The (largely) default attitude on ES is we suck.  Then something good happens.  The reaction will be "that was cool, but we suck".

 

I am fully convinced that fully a third of the people here would nitpick a Super Bowl run. 

 

It is what it is.

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Strong Buy.  I like Jay on all fronts except for clock management.  I think his personality is perfect to deal with the chaos associated with the owner/FO and keep things calm.  It sort of reminds me of Torre with the Yankees -- he helped bring stability and temper the craziness surrounding the team. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

Buy.  I like Jay on all fronts except for clock management.  I think his personality is perfect to deal with the chaos associated with the owner/FO and keep things calm.  It sort of reminds me of Torre with the Yankees -- he helped bring stability and temper the craziness surrounding the team. 

Clock management is funny because like, EVERY coach sucks with it. Its like a job requirement..."lolol".

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1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Buy.  I like Jay on all fronts except for clock management.  I think his personality is perfect to deal with the chaos associated with the owner/FO and keep things calm.  It sort of reminds me of Torre with the Yankees -- he helped bring stability and temper the craziness surrounding the team. 

And look at what THEY DID!

 

As I said earlier too, he's the perfect man for our situation.  

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11 minutes ago, Diehard Otis said:

Or let me say it another way: where does Jay rank in the pecking order of Head Men in The Division?  I've got him no worse than 2nd.

 

So we should never expect Gruden to improve because the giants hired a buffoon for coach and Dallas has a glorified cheerleader as their coach? Ok. 

 

Also, I’m glad to know you base your football opinions off how other fans respond to your trash talk. Sounds solid. 

Edited by Momma There Goes That Man
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Just now, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

So we should never expect Gruden to improve becuee the giants hired a buffoon for coach and Dallas has a glorified cheerleader as their coach? Ok. 

 

Also, I’m glad to know you base your football opinions of how others fans respond to your trash talk. Sounds solid. 

I don't do the internet argument thing.

 

At this point, it is clear we disagree.

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Just now, Warhead36 said:

Clock management is funny because like, EVERY coach sucks with it. Its like a job requirement..."lolol".

 

Yeah and I don't mean it in a nerdy Kevin Sheehan type of way.  There have been a bunch of games where he squandered seconds away from the offense to score and left too much time for the opponent.  But I agree multiple coaches have similar issues.

 

I hate though to focus on that negative.  I like everything else about Jay.  I don't think he's one of the top 5 coaches in the league.  But I do think he's a really good coach and the perfect coach for THIS team.   This isn't an easy franchise to manage with a steady hand -- and he's done that -- which to me is very impressive.  This franchise IMO desperately needs stability for a change and keeping Jay is essential to that.

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8 minutes ago, Diehard Otis said:

They're not ready to believe yet.

 

The (largely) default attitude on ES is we suck.  Then something good happens.  The reaction will be "that was cool, but we suck".

 

I am fully convinced that fully a third of the people here would nitpick a Super Bowl run. 

 

It is what it is.

 

That is looking at it from a fans view, I am thinking like a Coach here. I would love a SB run, love it, Hell I would love just a playoff run and for the team to show some consistency and an ability to empty the gun into the opponent instead of ones own foot. Just show me you are getting better at your job, small improvements. If Jay can achieve a winning record this year, finish out the season with a respectable run, I move to Buy. 

 

My beefs are pretty well stated, and were the same last year and the year before. He Zigs, when the other team Zags, can't seem to recognize momentum shifts and appears to Coach from fear of screwing up, gets tight when he should get loose. Too predictable, Gibbs always kept teams off balance. Not saying he has to be Gibbs to win, but shouldn't he try to use some of those methods? Does Doug get in his ear at all, or is Bruce in there too much? I don't know, the FO without Scot still scares me, too much of a possible pipeline to the lil'guy.

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5 minutes ago, SWFLSkins said:

 

That is looking at it from a fans view, I am thinking like a Coach here. I would love a SB run, love it, Hell I would love just a playoff run and for the team to show some consistency and an ability to empty the gun into the opponent instead of ones own foot. Just show me you are getting better at your job, small improvements. If Jay can achieve a winning record this year, finish out the season with a respectable run, I move to Buy. 

 

My beefs are pretty well stated, and were the same last year and the year before. He Zigs, when the other team Zags, can't seem to recognize momentum shifts and appears to Coach from fear of screwing up, gets tight when he should get loose. Too predictable, Gibbs always kept teams off balance. Not saying he has to be Gibbs to win, but shouldn't he try to use some of those methods? Does Doug get in his ear at all, or is Bruce in there too much? I don't know, the FO without Scot still scares me, too much of a possible pipeline to the lil'guy.

Look, you have some really legitimate gripes.  I won't lie, I agree with several issues you've mentioned.

 

I guess I'm taking a big picture view.  To me, none of his issues supercede his ability to make us a consistent Contender - we're not there yet, but we can all see it  coming into focus.  All-in-all, I'll take it.

 

There is one thing that I would quibble with: small improvements.  Winning the ballgame today qualifies as an improvement.  This is improvement!  Because in years past, we know full well what would've happened.

 

The Washington Redskins are getting it together.  This is gonna be a special year!

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 My apologies to DieHardOtis and Warhead36, I'm not saying Gruden needs to go, especially mid-season or after this season.

 He deserves at least throughout 2018.

 

 My concern is him reaching a certain plateau, a la 8-7-1, 9-7, but nothing more than that. He wasn't exactly a whiz coming from Cincy, and he had a few weapons over there that I wish we had here, like an AJ Green, but being able to capitalize and build on a winning season needs to happen; most fans including myself will not be satisfied with barely past winning seasons and possibly a playoff in-and-out.

 

He's got a few experiments on the turf with Doctson and Pryor, and I'm not sold on Pryor for sure, Doctson is a wait and see. He needs to pursue a tall WR who can play, but I'm not so sure he will be willing to go after a good WR whether the draft or trade. He is reluctant to make change, and the current group might be the best it gets, and if they don't improve, it will hamper chances to advance or excel.

 

His clock management does bring real cause for concern, being this has happened numerous times. Yes it can be a hindsight moment at times, but being in that situation before, and still doing it, does concern me. If he can get this team ready and beat the Eagles Monday night, it will give me a lot more confidence in him, because of the stakes. My 'sell' choice is based on 2 minute situations, and if he can overcome that, we will see improvement.

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Some of our best players were either out or not at 100%. A win is a win and I won't complain too miuch. Tho I def wish Gruden cleaned up his clock management. The players seem to love him which counts for something. They fight for him every week.

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Jay Gruden has more positives than negatives. He is a good offensive play designer and he has a good feel for how to maximize the strengths of the offense. 

 

However...

 

he needs to improve in late game management. Kind of a lot.

 

This is simple: on that last series...call a play-action pass on 2nd down! The Niners were stacking the box and beelining for Perine. A play fake with a short pass to Davis is a high percentage play in that situation, imo.

 

I was screaming for him to do that. Because what's the downside? If Kirk doesn't have exactly what he wants, run and slide to get what you can. It doesn't change the yardage by more than a yard or two, versus yet another ineffective run. The time on the clock remains the same. If they get a 1st down, the game is over. There's very little risk and a ton of reward.

 

The Niners called a timeout after the 1st down run to Perine, so there's time for Kirk to come to the sidelines and talk to Gruden about what to do. 

 

Kirk, if you don't love what you have, just take a couple of steps forward and slide.

 

I'd really like to have a conversation with Jay Gruden about this. He knows a lot more about football than I do. There has to be a reason, maybe a good one, why he ran three chicken**** plays that had about a 2 percent chance of getting a 1st down in that situation. I just can't think of what that reason is.

 

Edit: Thanks to the WaPo's Dan Steinberg for asking the same question. I attached audio of Gruden's answer in his post-game presser if you're interested.

gruden-answer.wav


 
Edited by normal_gymnasium
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4 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

If we get rid of Gruden, who are we gonna get that's better? We could find another up and coming assistant sure, but then we're basically starting over. Then when we go 5-11 with that new guy the SAME PEOPLE are gonna want him fired too. And you're more likely to get a loser than a winner.

 

Another retread? That has proven to not work. It'd be Shanahan part 2.

 

Jay Gruden is a better then average football coach. Watch other teams play and you'll see, there are some atrocious coaches in the league.

With the staff Jay has, he should be able to adjust playcalling and manage a clock better than he does at this point. He had more to do with the loss in KC than any player based on the ill advised TO. That crap happens a lot.

 

I'm not saying fire him... I'm saying he adds very little outside of some decent plays drawn up from time to time. 

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Can we somehow practice learning to run a quick snap when a play in our favor might be reviewed??

But I'm still BUYing what he's selling

Edited by bowhunter

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Trying to run Jay out of town is laughable, after a win, fanatical.

Like we are the Patriots and expect only the finest, perfection. Please.

People must have forgotten how bad/mediocre we've been before the last 3 yrs. Appreciate what you have. He's far from perfect and makes mistakes just like every other coach, big boneheaded ones. He's a knucklehead, but he's ours. I'm Buying.

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