Common Kirk....I just don't know....

[PartyPosse]

3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

True, there is a segment of Anti-Kirk folks that would still cling to the prior 58 minutes.  But most wouldn't really care and would call it rust or whatever.

If the defense didn't show up then Kirk only showing up in the last 2 minutes is a moot point.

 

And in a 16 game season, when your leader is making 1.5 million a game, rust is NOT a good excuse.

2 minutes ago, PortisBetts said:

by a long shot....that's how bad they are. 

I'm not sure we are. We have better coaching, that's for sure. Pagano didn't even know what team they were playing!

[bobandweave]

1 minute ago, PartyPosse said:

Understood and I can see it from that perspective. Perhaps it's because I'm so anti-Kirk that even if they won I wouldn't be able to ignore the same fundamental errors we've seen since day one and that I've been complaining about for a while now. I really wish the controversial ending didn't happen because it could have been a chance for Kirk to at least show he had put the Giants game behind him. I do think he lets things, moments, games linger and the longer they do the more he affects his confidence. This game didn't help but I hope he's not using the controversial call as an excuse to say "I probably would have led us" because he had shown little prior to that drive that he could.

 

Right I agree with you and to @PortisBetts I see you brother but I'm angry today. I'm angry that once again I feel as if we were treated differently then other teams are treated because we aren't in the NFL's pocket.

 

Our chance to either see Kirk melt down and choke again OR for him to show he could become clutch was taken from us on a call I would never see made against other teams. The issue I have isn't that Kirk played good he played like ass. Let me be clear, Kirk played like ass. Lots of players struggle week one. That's cool and all but to take a franchise like ours - we all saw that graphic that only 11% of teams who lose its first divisional game end up making the playoffs - and to flush it down the drain on such an obviously bad call like that pissed me off. Let the man play his way either in or out of this team and league. Don't let the zebras seal the deal on us. They would never do that to other clubs. 

 

All I said about Kirk was for as crappy and bad as he looked we have to remember that had he actually won the game yesterday we wouldn't really care that much. Winning is the only thing that matters. He lost, he deserves everything we are saying about him and you've brought up but lets not forget how the officials gave our chance away like that.  

[PortisBetts]

2 minutes ago, bobandweave said:

 

Right I agree with you and to @PortisBetts I see you brother but I'm angry today. I'm angry that once again I feel as if we were treated differently then other teams are treated because we aren't in the NFL's pocket.

 

Our chance to either see Kirk melt down and choke again OR for him to show he could become clutch was taken from us on a call I would never see made against other teams. The issue I have isn't that Kirk played good he played like ass. Let me be clear, Kirk played like ass. Lots of players struggle week one. That's cool and all but to take a franchise like ours - we all saw that graphic that only 11% of teams who lose its first divisional game end up making the playoffs - and to flush it down the drain on such an obviously bad call like that pissed me off. Let the man play his way either in or out of this team and league. Don't let the zebras seal the deal on us. They would never do that to other clubs. 

 

All I said about Kirk was for as crappy and bad as he looked we have to remember that had he actually won the game yesterday we wouldn't really care that much. Winning is the only thing that matters. He lost, he deserves everything we are saying about him and you've brought up but lets not forget how the officials gave our chance away like that.  

You aren't wrong to be pissed off about it. 

 

I wish I was more pissed off and less apathetic towards it. 

[PartyPosse]

I just wish the controversy didn't happen because I feel like it absolves the offense somewhat from this mess. That seems to be what many are talking about.

[mistertim]

10 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

If the defense didn't show up then Kirk only showing up in the last 2 minutes is a moot point.

 

And in a 16 game season, when your leader is making 1.5 million a game, rust is NOT a good excuse.

I'm not sure we are. We have better coaching, that's for sure. Pagano didn't even know what team they were playing!

 

I dunno...our defense has been bad but the Colts have been worse...they were truly godawful and have been for years. Our OL is FAR better...they don't seem to really care about it and when you combine that with their insistence on long developing plays they end up getting Luck absolutely brutalized year in and year out. Our run games are both poor. The Colts team outside of Luck and a couple of decent players is just godawful. I think Luck on this team would be a perennial SB contender.

[Llevron]

38 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

If Kirk leads the team down for the win, everyone forgives the prior 58 minutes of trash.

 

Come'on now. First only half of the fans would forgive the first 58 minutes. And second we have seen this song and dance before. Dude wasnt driving us 80 yards for the TD. He just wasnt. 

 

But you are right the call wasnt meaningless and it totally ended the game. But im ok with the refs cheating us versus Kirk failing us yet again.  

[NewCliche21]

32 minutes ago, PortisBetts said:

 

Again, you are blaming refs, but Cousins could have avoided the whole fumble in the first place by having awareness of what was directly in his face and adjusting. Instead, in what is becoming typical Cousins fashion, he forced something that wasn't there and fumbled because of it. 

 

But continue to blame the refs. 

 

Meh.  I blame the refs.  And Cousins.  And Moses.  And Crowder.  And Pryor.

 

It's a team win and a team loss, and the refs really did eff it up.  Nobody's individual mistakes take away blame from anyone else's, it's not like they cancel out or anything.  There's more than one "You Did A **** Job" trophy, and lots of people won yesterday

14 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I just wish the controversy didn't happen because I feel like it absolves the offense somewhat from this mess. That seems to be what many are talking about.

 

YES!  This is what I've been trying to say but couldn't find the words.  It's what people will focus on, and it does take the blame away from others who ALSO deserve it.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

Come'on now. First only half of the fans would forgive the first 58 minutes. And second we have seen this song and dance before. Dude wasnt driving us 80 yards for the TD. He just wasnt. 

 

But you are right the call wasnt meaningless and it totally ended the game. But im ok with the refs cheating us versus Kirk failing us yet again.  

I would have preferred he had the chance for better or worse.  I thought if there was one place where all fans would stand together it would be on the refs ripping us off badly to end that game.

 

Kirk has driven us down the field for the lead on numerous occasions in the past, even if the defense let the opposition score 12 seconds later making it null and void.  I'll concede that I can't recall a time where he's led the team down the field for a win in a game he's played so poorly in for the entirety of the game.  When he's bad, he's bad.

[PartyPosse]

5 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I would have preferred he had the chance for better or worse.  I thought if there was one place where all fans would stand together it would be on the refs ripping us off badly to end that game.

 

Kirk has driven us down the field for the lead on numerous occasions in the past, even if the defense let the opposition score 12 seconds later making it null and void.  I'll concede that I can't recall a time where he's led the team down the field for a win in a game he's played so poorly in for the entirety of the game.  When he's bad, he's bad.

Be honest, did you honestly feel confident that that is what he was going to do yesterday? My biggest gripe is that I wasn't even all that upset with the iffy call because I didn't think the team was going to win anyways and Kirk et al would have found some other heartbreaking way to blow it. 

 

Thats not a good sign.

[NewCliche21]

Just now, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I would have preferred he had the chance for better or worse.  I thought if there was one place where all fans would stand together it would be on the refs ripping us off badly to end that game.

 

Kirk has driven us down the field for the lead on numerous occasions in the past, even if the defense let the opposition score 12 seconds later making it null and void.  I'll concede that I can't recall a time where he's led the team down the field for a win in a game he's played so poorly in for the entirety of the game.  When he's bad, he's bad.

 

I mean I'm not defending Kirk at all for yesterday, because he was awful (I'm on the record as very pro-signing him), but I've read this argument a bunch of times and it's kind of annoying.

 

No, he's not Rodgers or Brady in terms of comebacks, but he was one of the best in the league last year alone (fourth in 4QC and fifth in GWD).  He's literally done a GWD against the Eagles where he needed a touchdown to score.  He had five last year alone.  It baffles me that people think that he didn't have a chance.  And this is what was the most infuriating part of the completely blown call.  If he never had a shot, then it would've been missing out on a couple of Hail Marys.  In this instance, Kirk had a significant chance to win it.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2016/passing.htm

[Veryoldschool]

1.  Crappy pass defense like 2015 & 2016..................................Check it sucks

2.  Crappy rush defense like 2015 & 2016...................................Check it sucks

3.  Crappy rushing offense like 2015 & 2016 ..............................Check it sucks

4.  Middle of the OL really sucks now..........................................Yes, it's putrid

5.  Mediocre passing offense without Garcon & Jackson............Yep, absolutely

 

Fears of 2017 preseason confirmed, the Skins absolutely blow.  A really strong passing game elevated a crappy team to mediocre 2015-2016 but when the passing attack is mediocre without Jackson, Garcon and yes McVey the Skins absolutely blow.

 

Maybe I'll be shocked because Pryor and Doctson will start to perform like the stars people hoped for and Jay will take a look at this mess and sort things out but it looks like a total meltdown scenario to me.  I can see Jay and company fired with Bruce Allen telling Snyder "see Dan, I knew we shouldn't offer Cousins the big bucks" and Cousins thinking to himself "I'm glad I didn't negotiate with the Skins and get stuck.  Snyder doesn't know how to run a franchise.  Now they won't tag me and I'll be free to sign with a good team.  I hope Ben retires!"

 

[PartyPosse]

18 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I dunno...our defense has been bad but the Colts have been worse...they were truly godawful and have been for years. Our OL is FAR better...they don't seem to really care about it and when you combine that with their insistence on long developing plays they end up getting Luck absolutely brutalized year in and year out. Our run games are both poor. The Colts team outside of Luck and a couple of decent players is just godawful. I think Luck on this team would be a perennial SB contender.

I'm not saying we are on par, but I think we are a lot closer to the colts than we are to the Pats.

 

They have a pretty decent 1-3 at receiver with Hilton, Montcrief and Aiken, a decent TE in Doyle and a promising young back in Mack. They perhaps got the second biggest steal in draft grabbing Hooker right before us and made a lot of nice picks in that draft (Wilson, Mack, Basham, Walker Jr late).

 

i think pagano is the biggest weakness on that team.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, PartyPosse said:

Be honest, did you honestly feel confident that that is what he was going to do yesterday? My biggest gripe is that I wasn't even all that upset with the iffy call because I didn't think the team was going to win anyways and Kirk et al would have found some other heartbreaking way to blow it. 

 

Thats not a good sign.

I'll just say that I'm not shocked that you of all people had no belief that he would lead the team down for a score.  I'm also not shocked that the contingent of fans dismissing the blown call by the refs are those that don't really like Kirk in the first place.

 

As for me, I absolutely did not feel confident that he would lead the team to a score either.  But not just because of him, but because of pretty much everything related to the offense looking like straight up dog **** the entire day.  While Kirk did not inspire any confidence in me yesterday, neither did anyone else on the entire offensive side of the ball not named Chris Thompson or Trent Williams.  So no, I did not expect anything good to happen. 

 

With all that said, whether we thought something good was going to happen or not is irrelevant.  They deserved the opportunity to fall on their faces themselves without interference from a laughable zebra crew.

[PartyPosse]

18 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I'll just say that I'm not shocked that you of all people had no belief that he would lead the team down for a score.  I'm also not shocked that the contingent of fans dismissing the blown call by the refs are those that don't really like Kirk in the first place.

 

As for me, I absolutely did not feel confident that he would lead the team to a score either.  But not just because of him, but because of pretty much everything related to the offense looking like straight up dog **** the entire day.  While Kirk did not inspire any confidence in me yesterday, neither did anyone else on the entire offensive side of the ball not named Chris Thompson or Trent Williams.  So no, I did not expect anything good to happen. 

 

With all that said, whether we thought something good was going to happen or not is irrelevant.  They deserved the opportunity to fall on their faces themselves without interference from a laughable zebra crew.

I'm not dismissing the call. I thought it was horsecrap, but I was also not as swayed by it because I had absolutely zero confidence that the team would find a way to win (and I did say Kirk et al meaning I wasn't just assuming it would be his screw up, but that the team as a whole would find a way to screw it up). I'm sure that's very influenced by my opinion of Kirk. I'm always ready and willing to admit being wrong about him and would have loved to see him lead the team at the end. I didn't think he was going to but still hoped and wanted him to. So many players had a chance for redemption - from Crowder and the muffed punt to Pryor and his drops to Reed, Davis and Doctson for basically being non-existent. For the OL to give Kirk time to Kelly for a chance to actually break a decent run, catching the defense off guard. We never had a chance. It sucks. Moving on to LA.

[CrypticVillain]

43 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

I just wish the controversy didn't happen because I feel like it absolves the offense somewhat from this mess. That seems to be what many are talking about.

I hope people aren't so blind with love for the team that they would ignore the piss-poor performance of the offense yesterday. Also, the same exact things that happened last year, it happened again yesterday.

 

I couldn't care less about that fumble. It should have never came down to that. If Kirk was as good as he think he is, he would have put the Eagles away early.

[JSSkinz]

I actually think the offense might be close to getting on the same page and become effective again, we saw flashes of it yesterday.

 

The frustrating part is you could see the issues in the preseason and after 5 quarters of football for the starters they still weren't ready for game one, I didn't see any progression from preseason game 1 up until yesterday.

 

As for the iffy fumble, whatever. We didn't deserve to win and everyone on this forum knows you don't win football games when you turn the ball over, especially when you're inside the 20 and a FG takes the lead with 11 minutes to go in the game.

 

The game was over when Kirk threw that interception.

[PartyPosse]

6 minutes ago, jschuck12001 said:

I actually think the offense might be close to getting on the same page and become effective again, we saw flashes of it yesterday.

 

The frustrating part is you could see the issues in the preseason and after 5 quarters of football for the starters they still weren't ready for game one, I didn't see any progression from preseason game 1 up until yesterday.

I agree actually. I think the biggest problems were fundamental errors. I liked the play-calling, Kirk overthrew some guys, receivers dropped balls and Kelly for whatever reason decided to do his best Matt Jones impression and hesitating while looking for a hole as opposed to just pounding it with authority. I think all correctable mistakes. 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

So, we start 0-4 correct the "correctable mistakes" and go 8-4 the rest of the way to another typical redskins season...

[CrypticVillain]

I guess I can third this, I do think the offense isn't as bad as it looked yesterday, but at the same time...

Kirk isn't the QB to make plays. If we have to rely on him to improvise, it's a wrap. I'm not even saying he has to be A-Rod or Wilson, but look at what Wentz did on that first TD pass. I don't think Cousins has that in him at all.

So even if the Offense turns it around, it would be because the players started playing their parts better and Kirk starts to do the right thing at the right times. That's the only hope this offense has IMO.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

That's where we differ.  I don't think all the negatives were correctable mistakes.  At least not correctable anytime soon.  Of all the folks that were bad yesterday, the only player I feel any level of confidence in correcting his mistakes quickly is Kirk, as I've seen him do it before.  A lot of the issues we had last season we had yesterday as well, such as giving up pressure up the middle, not being able to run the ball, Kelley being very basic, etc.  Add to that acclimating Pryor in to the offense, his dropsies, Doctson on a milk carton and Reed hampered by the toe. 

[RandyHolt]

I feel like its very telling that neither Kirk nor Jay can be on their A game to start the season.

 

I would consider not over thinking it, saying that it happens to all teams and not to worry about it, but half the teams blindly win. You'd think we'd stumble into one finally.  Game 1 always carries a lot of pressure, and we are absolutely an embarrassment in big games and on big stages - any undue pressure makes us cave. Usually really badly.  Has there been a team in the past 17 years worse than we are in that regard? There just cannot be. And the worst part (assuming this) is that we are also the worst at home. Ironic, because back in the Gibbs 1 years, we were king of Monday night.

 

All those Philly fans going home last night with a W, it's going to make even more come next time. We have to end this madness. It's so bad, it is literally taking over our home field. Home games have never been less a home game. It was supposed to provide an advantage. Our field just doesn't anymore.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

4 minutes ago, CrypticVillain said:

Kirk isn't the QB to make plays. If we have to rely on him to improvise, it's a wrap.

 

Kirk improvised yesterday and freaking led the team in rushing (I realize this is sad).  Many other times the play broke down before anyone can even think about improvising.

 

Hate on his play all you want, like the red zone pick and overthrows - that's all valid.  But we didn't lose because he won't improvise.  It's hard to improvise when your interior line misses blocks or gets bulldozed off the snap.

[PortisBetts]

The bottom line is Kirk Cousins sucks in the red zone. Badly. Perhaps worst in the league. 

[DM72]

3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

That's where we differ.  I don't think all the negatives were correctable mistakes.  At least not correctable anytime soon.  Of all the folks that were bad yesterday, the only player I feel any level of confidence in correcting his mistakes quickly is Kirk, as I've seen him do it before.  A lot of the issues we had last season we had yesterday as well, such as giving up pressure up the middle, not being able to run the ball, Kelley being very basic, etc.  Add to that acclimating Pryor in to the offense, his dropsies, Doctson on a milk carton and Reed hampered by the toe. 

 

Can Kirk correct his habit of throwing INT's when we have a chance at winning the game? 

[CrypticVillain]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Kirk improvised yesterday and freaking led the team in rushing.  Many other times the play broke down before anyone can even think about improvising.

 

Hate on his play all you want, like the red zone pick and overthrows - that's all valid.  But we didn't lose because he won't improvise.  It's hard to improvise when your interior line misses blocks or gets bulldozed off the snap.

No, those plays broke down and he ran. (Something he should have did in Week 17 last year, but I digress.)

When I say improvise, I mean the pocket breaks down, and he's able to keep his eyes up field and make a throw.

It's a reason I mentioned Wentz... Yes, Cousins did scramble for 30 yards yesterday... But he's not good at making throws when things break down.

 

But he did finally scramble at least... (And he protected himself, even though he didn't slide.)