joeken24

Bill Callahan and the Offensive Line

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On 8/31/2017 at 4:23 PM, OVCChairman said:

I agree about Lavaman but for some reason Gruden and co. loves the guy... what am I (are we) missing? 

 

No LG currently on the team is good enough to replace the Lavaman.  Long, IMO, was being groomed to replace Lavaman but he had to fill in for an injured Lichty and he flourished at the position.  Then Kouandjio was looked upon as a Lavaman replacement but his development has clearly stalled because he is now fighting for a roster spot with UDFA's.  If Roullier can develop into an NFL center then Long can move to LG and replace Lavaman. 

 

On 9/1/2017 at 7:42 AM, carex said:

so, does Rollier being held out last night mean the Skins could be starting him week one?

 

That is a real possibility but I heard Gruden say on 980 yesterday that Long will practice tomorrow, along with Cravens, and be evaluated to see if he can start week 1.  

 

On 9/1/2017 at 8:14 AM, CrypticVillain said:

I know I'm probably late to the party on this, but what's the problem with replacing "Lavaman" with Long at guard and starting Roullier at center?

 

Doc Walker can be a bit overboard at times, but one thing I never disagreed on him with was the fact that you have to get your best five offensive linemen on the field. Lavaou isn't a part of that group anymore.

 

Replacing Lavaman with Long is the most likely scenario so long as Roullier develops into a true NFL center.  Roullier showed potential in his one pre-season start but that is a minuscule sample size.  To Doc Walker, based on last season, the Skins current best O-line combination would be 79, 71, 61, 75, 76 but that won't happen.  For the future the optimal O-line combination would be 71, 61, 73, 75, 76, IMO.  

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One thing for sure is that Coach Callaghan has his work cut out for him with whatever is left from today's cuts.

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Catalina will make the team per John Keim.  Undrafted rookie guard out of Georgia.  

 

Also, not a good sign for Kouandio. 

57 minutes ago, ksun247 said:

One thing for sure is that Coach Callaghan has his work cut out for him with whatever is left from today's cuts.

 

Why?  All starters return from a very good, and young, O-line.  

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Not sold on our current LG. Was hoping we could groom some young talent to replace him.

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5 minutes ago, ksun247 said:

Not sold on our current LG. Was hoping we could groom some young talent to replace him.

 

They are.  Chase Roullier.  If he can play center in the NFL then that frees up Long to replace Lavaman.

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Haven't seen roullier play yet but am liking what I'm hearing. 

 

If we can get a late draft pick to turn into a starting nfl center that is huge. 

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I have been quietly hoping that Kalis makes the squad -- I really like how he's done. Very efficient, but not flashy.  

 

I hope the Skins can finally move on from Lauvao -- I don't get what they see in him.  

 

...And Arie --though very strong at the initial point of attack -- doesn't seem to get what's expected of him after the first block.  I think either Kalis or Catalina (sp?) might bump Arie off the roster.

 

Edited by Wyvern

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Long has seen limited reps in practice. I still think they will start him Sunday even if he is 75%.

 

I get it - Roullier is an unknown, a rookie, a huge question mark. But, if Long isn't right, shouldn't we be going with Roullier? I'm sensing a "start rusty Licht over decently performing Ribs" moment coming on. I hope it doesn't hurt us this week.

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5 minutes ago, MassSkinsFan said:

Long has seen limited reps in practice. I still think they will start him Sunday even if he is 75%.

 

I get it - Roullier is an unknown, a rookie, a huge question mark. But, if Long isn't right, shouldn't we be going with Roullier? I'm sensing a "start rusty Licht over decently performing Ribs" moment coming on. I hope it doesn't hurt us this week.

I'm getting the very same vibe. Chase has worked with the "ones" for the past 2 weeks. He started our last PS game. This will be the best opportunity to allow him to continue to gel with his fellow OL. Long is coming off a 2 week post procedural rest and is just starting to do individual drills. Start Chase. See what we have. If the game seems too big for him after the first quarter, then bring Long in. There will not be a better opportunity to see what our future looks like than this weekend.  

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37 minutes ago, MassSkinsFan said:

Long has seen limited reps in practice. I still think they will start him Sunday even if he is 75%.

 

I get it - Roullier is an unknown, a rookie, a huge question mark. But, if Long isn't right, shouldn't we be going with Roullier? I'm sensing a "start rusty Licht over decently performing Ribs" moment coming on. I hope it doesn't hurt us this week.

 

Fletcher Cox is the reason Long might start at 75%, if he is 75%.  Asking a rookie to go up against arguably the best DT in the NFL is a lot regardless of the round said rookie was drafted in.  Having said that, if Roullier starts this week we will have a pretty good idea after the game whether he can make it as a starting center in the NFL.  

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yea this OL will get tested super early with the Eagles DL.  IMO that is one of the best DLines we will face all season so if we can do well then we are in great shape.

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The worst thing for Long's knee may be Fletcher Cox. This may be a season long decision, to get Long out while still healing - no pun intended. For he may not heal properly.  If a guy is injured we bring him back at 100% unless the season is on the line or the backup is proving he is not a viable backup. Coaching can help Chase out... don't put him on an island in the first series, roll Kirk out, let him get his feet wet before expecting him to stand stout 1 on 1 vs 1 of the best. 

 

We can always yank Chase if he is getting pitchforked after 1 series. I say lets roll with the kid.  He had been facing a good test all through camp IMO, all our cut noses were getting good reports on them.

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A question about Lauvao, when you sign a player in FA aren't you supposed to give the player the best chance to succeed?. We signed Lauvao who played RG for the Browns and have played him at LG in all his games as a Redskin, I know some of you might say there is not much difference whichever G position you play, if that's the case why didn't we play Lauvao in his normal position at RG and put Sherff in at LG. 

 

HTTR 

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@RandyHoltKind of with you with that.  Not going to get into the many reasons, but it's a heck of a test for Roullier.  If he passes, he could easily be a big upgrade (at least long term) to Long... who doesn't grade out very well at C from everything I've seen.  If he doesn't, well, at least Long gets a bit more time to recover/heal.  

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10 minutes ago, markmills67 said:

A question about Lauvao, when you sign a player in FA aren't you supposed to give the player the best chance to succeed?. We signed Lauvao who played RG for the Browns and have played him at LG in all his games as a Redskin, I know some of you might say there is not much difference whichever G position you play, if that's the case why didn't we play Lauvao in his normal position at RG and put Sherff in at LG. 

 

HTTR 

IMHO you sign a player to fit a need... not position a player based on their own preference.  I don't like Lauvao and I feel we need to replace him.  I dont think he should be playing anywhere on our O-line... but Scherff made a pro-bowl last year at RG.  Personally I don't think that they are so much interchangeable.  A RG can succeed at LG, but i dont think it's automatic.  The other factor is that i feel having an All Pro LT next to Lauvao can mask some of his deficiencies and it would truly expose a VERY weak right side if we had a Willams, Scherff, Long, Lauvao, Moses, in that order.  Having a pro-bowler on each side give us some sort of balance and stability.  If we had 2 studs on the left, defenses would just shift their top pass rushers to the other side and have a field day with that side of the line.  

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38 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

@RandyHoltKind of with you with that.  Not going to get into the many reasons, but it's a heck of a test for Roullier.  If he passes, he could easily be a big upgrade (at least long term) to Long... who doesn't grade out very well at C from everything I've seen.  If he doesn't, well, at least Long gets a bit more time to recover/heal.  

 

 

The more important thing is that if Chase works out a C, you can move Long to RG and send Lauvao packing.

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What makes an OL good on one side, less so on the other. We hear Ty is a great LT, RT just meh.  Maybe he is left handed and can closeline those punk speed wide only pass rushers more effectively with his left arm. Maybe it's which hand is in the dirt.

 

Is it based on handedness, or eye dominance.... personal preference / superstition / where they played the most... we need answers and fast. They drop the puck tonight! 

Edited by RandyHolt

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We as fans tend to devalue the importance of the line calls at Center because we simply don't know when they screw it up. We just see the results of that screw up and assign blame to the Olineman who's physically involved in the negative play. 

 

When Roullier started against the Bengals, he graded out well because we're just seeing the physical aspect of his game. What we miss is what he even admitted after the game - that he messed up some calls. 

 

There was a pass play where initially everyone trashed Lauvao cuz it looked like he got beat. But after further review you see Lauvao accounting for two players because someone messed up the line call. It's hard for me to assume that was Kirk... so who's left?

 

Interestingly enough, I asked Roullier after the Bengals' game what's easier for him, passes or runs? In terms of blocking, he said he doesn't have a preference but, surprisingly, he said that the calls when it's a run are the hardest. I always assumed it'd be in the passing game, what with all the blitzes and stunts they've got to deal with. 

 

But that certainly fits with everything we've heard and seen regarding the complexity of our running game and the missed assignments that happen too often. 

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7 hours ago, Jacoby66forHOF said:

 

Fletcher Cox is the reason Long might start at 75%, if he is 75%.  Asking a rookie to go up against arguably the best DT in the NFL is a lot regardless of the round said rookie was drafted in.  Having said that, if Roullier starts this week we will have a pretty good idea after the game whether he can make it as a starting center in the NFL.  

From the November 22, 1999 Wa Post:  " New York Giants defensive end Michael Strahan this week had some pointed words for the Washington Redskins, especially rookie right tackle Jon Jansen. Jansen had humbled Strahan in their first head-to-head encounter Sept. 26 and helped the Redskins roll to a 50-21 triumph at Giants Stadium."  I don't want to downplay Fletcher Cox, but Jansen had an arguably tougher assignment -- and he took care of business like a champ.

 

You start Long at 75% and he won't be long. 

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7 hours ago, Jacoby66forHOF said:

 

Fletcher Cox is the reason Long might start at 75%, if he is 75%.  Asking a rookie to go up against arguably the best DT in the NFL is a lot regardless of the round said rookie was drafted in.  Having said that, if Roullier starts this week we will have a pretty good idea after the game whether he can make it as a starting center in the NFL.  

 

Long at 100% against Cox isn't a good matchup. At 75% it borders on being pretty bad. I'm skeered!!! :ols:

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4 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

We as fans tend to devalue the importance of the line calls at Center because we simply don't know when they screw it up. We just see the results of that screw up and assign blame to the Olineman who's physically involved in the negative play. 

 

When Roullier started against the Bengals, he graded out well because we're just seeing the physical aspect of his game. What we miss is what he even admitted after the game - that he messed up some calls. 

 

There was a pass play where initially everyone trashed Lauvao cuz it looked like he got beat. But after further review you see Lauvao accounting for two players because someone messed up the line call. It's hard for me to assume that was Kirk... so who's left?

 

Interestingly enough, I asked Roullier after the Bengals' game what's easier for him, passes or runs? In terms of blocking, he said he doesn't have a preference but, surprisingly, he said that the calls when it's a run are the hardest. I always assumed it'd be in the passing game, what with all the blitzes and stunts they got to deal with. 

 

But that certainly fits with everything we've heard and seen regarding the complexity of our running game and the missed assignments that happen too often. 

 

To oversimplify, passes are easier to call because although you have different sets depending upon the position of DL, actual pass blocking generally involves either defending a zone, or defending against an assigned defender, so the call comes down to man, zone or combo, and might include a call to shift to one side or the other (generally a half step); runs are more difficult because there are more potential types of blocking associated with runs (drive, trap, slide, influence, reach, angle, etc.), and your whole blocking technique may change as DL position changes. A straight drive block may become a reach block, or an influence block. These require different approaches, and making the calls associated with this requires you to think a bit more specifically about what each OL guy is assigned to do and how effective it might be given what's in front of you. Let's also remember that the center is not the only one who makes line calls - sometimes the other guys see something and bring it to the attention of everyone else. Also, a QB can make a line call that trumps anyone else's.

 

Here's an old but informative NYT article on line calls:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/sports/football/02center.html 

 

People mess up line calls. It happens. Generally it is not catastrophic, though it could lead to injury of a QB if the error is humongous.

 

I just can't think of a situation where a player's ability to make line calls is more important than his ability to execute his blocks.

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16 hours ago, GothSkinsFan said:

From the November 22, 1999 Wa Post:  " New York Giants defensive end Michael Strahan this week had some pointed words for the Washington Redskins, especially rookie right tackle Jon Jansen. Jansen had humbled Strahan in their first head-to-head encounter Sept. 26 and helped the Redskins roll to a 50-21 triumph at Giants Stadium."  I don't want to downplay Fletcher Cox, but Jansen had an arguably tougher assignment -- and he took care of business like a champ.

 

You start Long at 75% and he won't be long. 

 

You are comparing a rookie RT (Jansen) that started 50 straight games at Michigan at RT and was a 2nd round pick to a guy (Roullier) that played at Wyoming, only played one year at center (14 games) and was a 6th round pick.   Apples and oranges.

 

If Long is 75% or better by Sunday he plays.

15 hours ago, MassSkinsFan said:

 

Long at 100% against Cox isn't a good matchup. At 75% it borders on being pretty bad. I'm skeered!!! :ols:

 

Agreed but Roullier is a big ? at this point.  I'd rather have a 75% Long at this point.

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23 minutes ago, Jacoby66forHOF said:

Agreed but Roullier is a big ? at this point.  I'd rather have a 75% Long at this point.

 

It was said above by another poster, but my reluctance centers on (nice right?) the real risk of Long being seriously injured trying to return too early.

 

We're carrying only two Cs even though one is untested in real NFL games. There must be a reason we didn't keep insurance. Why take the risk of making your unknown the main guy for the season if you have reasonable confidence he can hang in there for one game?

 

I'd play Roullier but hey, I wanted Ribs versus GB in that playoff game. I'm sure Gruden would put in Long even if he were at 50%.

 

Whatever. My main concern is Cousins get good protection on Sunday.

 

Hail!

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18 minutes ago, MassSkinsFan said:

 

It was said above by another poster, but my reluctance centers on (nice right?) the real risk of Long being seriously injured trying to return too early.

 

We're carrying only two Cs even though one is untested in real NFL games. There must be a reason we didn't keep insurance. Why take the risk of making your unknown the main guy for the season if you have reasonable confidence he can hang in there for one game?

 

I'd play Roullier but hey, I wanted Ribs versus GB in that playoff game. I'm sure Gruden would put in Long even if he were at 50%.

 

Whatever. My main concern is Cousins get good protection on Sunday.

 

Hail!

 

Its a tough decision to be sure, but thats why Gruden gets paid the big bucks.  It all comes down to how ready Long is.  That won't be determined until pre-game warmups most likely.  It feels like it could either way at this point.  Whoever starts at center expect a lot of multiple TE sets to help block along the line until either Long or Roullier show they can handle their blocking assignments without help.  

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