The Federalist: The Death Of Expertise

[Riggo-toni]

9 hours ago, Kilmer17 said:

To continue that thought, all of our issues can be solved by more education and knowledge.  IE, we can accept that XXXX is failing because lack of education, but XXXX isnt a lost cause.  Their is always time to learn

Or maybe just too many stupid people keep reproducing.

[Jumbo]

I'm going to go ahead and say now to move on from the/any religion-focused tangent, and those posts were great and were still related to the topic. 

 

I was happy to see petermp post i(n a serious fashion) in here as he was one of several members I thought about when making this thread.

 

I have a great deal of respect for peter tho we have dissimilar views on some important matters, he is one of the true experts here, in a demanding field of study (his actual profession) and with a mastery of it that also shows up in a lot of acquired expertise in several related areas.

 

I think a lot of people don't tend to appreciate some of the skill sets that one develops in such a pursuit (especially after many years of practiced experience) with being a driven and dedicated student of your chosen field operating at the higher levels of quality academic programs (all the research and critical thinking and analytical skills, for example). 

 

On top of that, his comportment here is usually so steadfast and calm and constrained, and never ever insults or trolls or even does the gratuitous snark. Every now and then I will kid him about loosening up a bit, maybe, and joke around more. 

 

But that was not to do a tribute to Peter---the stuff I mentioned relates to the nature of the interactions under discussion. 

[PeterMP]

After that, I feel like I should comment more broadly.

 

This isn't something that I overly worry about in that I don't worry that it is actually getting worse.  Gallop has a belief creationism essentially flat since 1982.

 

Over the last few years, if anything support for climate change is up (though I suspect that is partly tied to the record breaking years that were partly tied to El Nino.  We likely won't break another record until we get another significant El Nino so we'll see what happens to that support).

 

And before climate change, it was acid rain and the ozone hole.

 

There are two things that I do think have happened:

1.  Social media has made those that doubt experts more able to amplify their voices (though, it is also amplifying everybody's voices and scientists are certainly trying to rise to the challenge (and some might argue even too robustly)).

 

2.  The internet/social media allows for better organization of a few people with the same strong opinions, which MIGHT be allowing them to exert more political power in our system (I'm 50/50 on this because in the end, I also think it comes down to money).

[gbear]

On the topic of what happens when people chose fear over the advise born of expertise, I give you today's message from the American Board of Internal Medicine.

measles-outbreak-and-the-risk-of-forgetting-medical-miracles

 

Of course that is just measles.  There is also the whooping cough which we got down from 178k a year before vaccinations to about a 1,000 in 1976.  Now with anti-vaccination pushes we are back in the 20k range a year. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pertussis

 

Our move from respecting expertise comes at a stiff price, and these two examples are just a couple of medical ones out of many I could have chosen.  The thing is, the dearth of expertise in our culture has some very real impacts.  It's just our stubbornness keeps us from recognizing them.  

[Riggo-toni]

One of the fundamental flaws of human nature is the need to supply some sort of controllable causation for essentially random tragic events.  Prior to the age of reason, it was always something someone had done to offend or fail to placate god(s) - see the gospels where Jesus's disciples ask if a man born blind was sinful, or if he was suffering because of his parents' sins. Now we look for some kind of "rational" explanation even if science or medicine does not yet have the answer. Your seemingly normal kid turns out to be autistic, you crave answers and then jump on the anti-vaxxer bandwagon. Two kids shoot up their school...it must be Marilyn Manson's fault. If you're Italian, you are certain air conditioning causes arthritis.

[PeterMP]

On 6/1/2017 at 3:42 PM, PeterMP said:

After that, I feel like I should comment more broadly.

 

This isn't something that I overly worry about in that I don't worry that it is actually getting worse.  Gallop has a belief creationism essentially flat since 1982.

 

Over the last few years, if anything support for climate change is up (though I suspect that is partly tied to the record breaking years that were partly tied to El Nino.  We likely won't break another record until we get another significant El Nino so we'll see what happens to that support).

 

And before climate change, it was acid rain and the ozone hole.

 

There are two things that I do think have happened:

1.  Social media has made those that doubt experts more able to amplify their voices (though, it is also amplifying everybody's voices and scientists are certainly trying to rise to the challenge (and some might argue even too robustly)).

 

2.  The internet/social media allows for better organization of a few people with the same strong opinions, which MIGHT be allowing them to exert more political power in our system (I'm 50/50 on this because in the end, I also think it comes down to money).

 

I'm taking this post back.  My mind has been changed this evening.  I was wrong.

[The Sisko]

On 5/31/2017 at 11:33 AM, AsburySkinsFan said:

 

staff edit

When you see a bunch of these and you didn't get to see the posts before the staff edits...

 

On 5/31/2017 at 0:22 PM, No Excuses said:

There is a segment of the population, of mostly grown adults, that is wholly incapable of appreciating expertise, aware of their ignorance but too proud to acknowledge that others know more. There was a time I would try to engage this segment but I have come to learn that it is a colossal waste of time. Some people are too far gone.

 

IMO the best you can do is hope and work towards a future where the successive generations have less people who are proud to be ignorant loudmouths.

I was at a meeting in "real" 'Muricuh a few weeks ago and overheard a conversation at the next table between a couple of firefighters. Evidently one of their co-workers had been elevated to Chief. They were pissed because he got the position because this bastidge had the nerve to go out and get himself a bachelors in fire science. *GASP* At one point, one of them said something along the lines of "How's a degree gonna help you fight a fire?" Mind you this wasn't some northern philosophy professor, but a guy with a practical, applied skill set based in science. So you wanna tell me the disparaging of "egghead elites" doesn't have a downstream effect? The country went to hell in a handbasket but we won the election!!

 

Those of you that care about this country might want to pay attention and think more carefully about who you're voting for. Me? All I have to say is, meh somebody tell the Chinese to turn the lights out when they're done...or the Russians if Dump gets his way.

 

On 5/31/2017 at 9:05 PM, Vilandil Tasardur said:

But I think you're absolutely right that it's not worth wasting your time on trying to educate those that have chosen you are wrong. My in-laws for example, are convinced that evolution is a hoax, that fossils were put there by the devil, and that I am perpetuating conspiracy because my industry is "rolling in billions of grant money" and that we admitting we're wrong would be akin to turning off the spicket. Accordingly, they vote to defund science at every possible opportunity.

 

I'm not going to waste one second of my time arguing with my in-laws. They've made up their mind, and have decided that they know more than me because I am (a) a child (in their minds), and (b) involved in a mass conspiracy to rob small business owners of their hard earned dollars. 

I want to punch your in-laws in the throat and make their teeth click, AKA the Bernie Mack treatment.