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Reuters: Five dead in Quebec City mosque shooting: mosque president

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one tweet above from Katz says "ideological test asks muslims 'what do they believe?' before approving mosque".

 

 

is this good or bad?

 

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1 hour ago, grego said:

one tweet above from Katz says "ideological test asks muslims 'what do they believe?' before approving mosque".

 

 

is this good or bad?

 

 

Let's see how Christians believe on things like gays and abortion and other religions before deciding if they can get a church or not.....

 

 

is that that good or bad?

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3 hours ago, visionary said:

 

Let's see how Christians believe on things like gays and abortion and other religions before deciding if they can get a church or not.....

 

 

is that that good or bad?

 

good.

 

if any christian (or jew, muslim, etc) believed gays should be killed for being gay, they should not be zoned for a church. same thing if they believed you should be put to death for things like leaving the faith, adultery, or insulting the religion. 

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7 hours ago, grego said:

 

good.

 

if any christian (or jew, muslim, etc) believed gays should be killed for being gay, they should not be zoned for a church. same thing if they believed you should be put to death for things like leaving the faith, adultery, or insulting the religion. 

 

How is this determined?

 

when Muslims give "politically correct" answers we are accused of lying and hiding our beliefs

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7 hours ago, grego said:

 

good.

 

if any christian (or jew, muslim, etc) believed gays should be killed for being gay, they should not be zoned for a church. same thing if they believed you should be put to death for things like leaving the faith, adultery, or insulting the religion. 


 

I'll get to your questions in a bit, but do you ascribe to any religion,  grego? I think of myself as a "strong" agnostic, but tell believers of religions of the bible that i do regard their specific theology/dogma/godstory details as the old "stuff made up by humans" dealio.

 

there's an an exercise a lot of folks do these days of contrasting the tenets of christianity to islam with the apparent goal being to show one is "better" than the other, or, more often, to show that "islam is bad" (cutting to the chase).


i think it's more a matter of the historical time, region of specific manifestations, and all considered within global history and social conditions of the cultures in play, that are the biggest shapers of followers' behaviors than inherent differences in their basic dogma...what about you? dogma matters too of course and when someone can appropriately present clear examples of one departing dramatically from the other on a specific topic of interest, then there's some solid material to work with

 

heck, these days the sheer numbers of constituencies, their global locations, and all the forms of both islam and christianity show a great deal of diversity of behaviors, even within their larger common areas of beliefs....but even their beliefs will vary in significant fashion on social or political positions....we can even add the layer here that claiming a faith doesn't mean you actually know it or follow it.....many self-proclaimed xtians certainly don't seem to reflect some basic teachings in their sociopolitical views, or at the very least, are very selective (and often hypocritical) in their menu choice...jesus would never have been mistaken for a preacher of the prosperity gospel or an impassioned advocate of the endless pursuit of wealth and self interest

 

even within a single state here in the usa, i meet with xtian churches/congregations that range from (generalizing their nautre) extreme and animated fundamentalist baptists, more than a few of whom are even openly mean-spirited to "others" like gays/trans/atheists/muslims/liberals(lol), to more "quiet" and lovingly inclusive evangelical lutherans who do such without any projected disapproval of "others" (not just gays).

 

i have been to far fewer mosques (6 in three states), and so with a much smaller sample, i only have the benign to report anecdotally. i know the other side is out there (aside from logic, the best academic sources I have pretty consistently indicate a little over a third of U.S. muslims find homosexuality, for instance, should be accepted).

 

to your questions---do you think the standard of "do you believe gays/adulterers/unbelievers should be killed" is maybe setting the bar too low? 

 

what would you think about setting the bar  where we even ought to consider if your church should be "zoned"  if you teach that homosexuality--and even with heteros---that oral, anal, or "unmarried" sexual intercourse, even among consenting adults, is sinful, and if unrepentant, damnable.

 

as with some tenets ascribed to islam, many find those beliefs ignorant, oppressive, and in fact (not belief) are often very damaging teachings that dramatically and negatively impact many perfectly good and decent people, (inc. their death at times) with seemingly little upside other than "we're preaching the faith" and all based on "reasons" that seem sadly ludicrous from any rational and informed POV but yet "holy" and "right", thanks to religion.

 

because certainly an omniscient supreme and perfect being who has made "man" in "his" own image would obviously be extremely concerned that even for the demographic of non-adulterous consenting adults, putting the penis into the mouth or anus, especially of someone the same sex but even if not,  is cause for damnation ( i think if its same sex it's double secret damnation). but god is all-powerful and all-wise and "he'd" need to make sure that **** got covered !!! there are holy holes properly sanctioned and then are the dark pits of hades (ok, so i didn't keep a straight---no pun intended--face there) beckoning you to your eternal suffering. 

 

its strictly penis to vagina folks, and only if you're trying to make a baby (or at least, that used to be part of it--it does change) but anything else---damnation!

 

wasn't there even a term---something about positioning your missionaries with the natives. 

 

i think it's a glaringly obvious indictment, too, of how islam and christianity are full of plenty of human-made nonsense taught as god's law and this one matter alone will be a real factor in their deterioration from current forms and (more/ongoing) eventual change over time (just my call)


misogyny is another area where xtian history and dogma is a mixed bag of positives (necessary! yay!) and negatives (unnecessary! boo!) for women and and can be teed up for the argument of "not as  bad" as islam, if one likes that action.

 

too much ignorant unjust oppression imv even if you're not killing them and are even being "nice" to them on their road to eternal damnation

 

 

but i digress :D on purpose and at length

 

my initial intent was to advise not to go too far afield topic-wise, even knowing I was going to extend it with this (one and only) post :)

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15 minutes ago, SkinsHokieFan said:

 

How is this determined?

 

 

 

Waterboarding .....dunking is out of fashion.;)

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1 minute ago, Jumbo said:

if they float they're a terrorist? 

 

Tis the traditional answer.

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17 minutes ago, twa said:

 

Tis the traditional answer.

  

i'm in

 

 

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, SkinsHokieFan said:

 

How is this determined?

 

when Muslims give "politically correct" answers we are accused of lying and hiding our beliefs

 

i don't believe that a simple Q and A alone would really accomplish much. anyone who believed in those things would have no problem lying or invoking taqiyya (that specific persons own version or justification for it).

 

how can one know how someone actually feels? sometimes, people are very open about it (westboro baptist among others). i think if people (or the government) really wanted to know, you could find out- so little is private these days. the government has resources, financial records, even knowledge of associations with shady people. i saw a forensic files episode yesterday where a husband and wife (not even prominent imams or preachers- regular joe schmos) were busted committing an honor killing of their daughter only because the FBI had bugged their house because the husband had met with someone who was known to have ties to terrorist organizations. crazy stuff. 

 

 

 

Edited by grego

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Jumbo said:

 

 

Quote

 

I'll get to your questions in a bit, but do you ascribe to any religion,  grego? I think of myself as a "strong" agnostic, but tell believers of religions of the bible that i do regard their specific theology/dogma/godstory details as the old "stuff made up by humans" dealio.

 

there's an an exercise a lot of folks do these days of contrasting the tenets of christianity to islam with the apparent goal being to show one is "better" than the other, or, more often, to show that "islam is bad" (cutting to the chase).

 

 

i think its almost always unproductive when someone criticizes another religion when they themselves follow a religion that contains some not so kind stuff- plank in your eye, etc. SHF told me about robert spencer- someone who does this - a few years ago, you spend the whole time either listening to them or reading them wondering how much of what they are saying is spin, and how much is true.

 

people i tend to have some respect for are those that dont have a 'dog in the fight'- or, less of a dog in the fight, even if i dont agree with alot of what they say. i'm not an atheist (more of a hopeful theist), but i read and listen to atheists more than anyone when it comes to religious criticism of any kind. i think theres much to be gained by hearing people with a viewpoint (im reminded of the meghan phelps ted talk) that i may not have considered- how do my long held beliefs appear to someone else? what are the flaws in my beliefs or the holes in my argument? 

 

this is not to say that all religions teach the same thing, or that all religions are equally non progressive- this is a flaw i see people make in arguments. but criticizing one from the viewpoint of another isnt productive. 

 

Quote

to your questions---do you think the standard of "do you believe gays/adulterers/unbelievers should be killed" is maybe setting the bar too low?

 

no. but i have a very low bar. :)

 

i'm very pro free speech, which means i have to put up with opinions that are very different from my own. when it comes to actual hate speech (defined loosely as things like 'gays, insert race, short people, etc are inferior/subhuman, etc, and, therefore, i hate them), i think you have to allow people to have bad ideas. where it crosses the line is calling for the death of people -or something pretty close to it, imo.

 

Quote

my initial intent was to advise not to go too far afield topic-wise, even knowing I was going to extend it with this (one and only) post 

 

i was conscious of this, as well. my linda sarsour derail went off topic- i was responding to a post that was headed off topic and we, shockingly, ended up off topic. my post yesterday was at least in response to a specific tweet about the actual subject. so, yay, me (pats self on the back)

Edited by grego
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don & the unending line of spokesmutants will soon be condemning these incidents with fervor and launch a new gov't office to investigate

 

maybe get a crying mom or wife for the optics

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Really, truly considering moving on from addiction therapy to political psychology so I can study white people. Have a couple of meetings next week to see how viable that is. My dream is to put in work on my Hitler micro-dick theory. I'm convinced there's something to that. 

 

Either way (addiction or crazy, angry white people) there should be a ton of work for the foreseeable future. Lot of overlap too I'm sure. 

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