Ron78

The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

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I can't believe anyone is treating Kirk like a victim in all of this. I simply cannot believe people believe Kirk has been given a bum deal since he got here. 

 

He was NEVER going to take RG3's spot in 2012 and 2013 simply because the team invested heavily in RG3. It would have been absolutely ridiculous to pull the plug, even at the beginning of the year when RG3 was still recovering. This was Robert's team, like or not, he earned the right to start in 2013 with what he did in his rookie season. Even still. when the season was essentially done in '13, Cousins got an opportunity to prove himself and he failed. Not only did he look bad, he got progressively worse with each passing game. The last game of the season he had an astounding 31.8 QBR against the Giants. Still, 2014 he was still a part of the team and again he had an opportunity to start when Griffin went down and while he looked better, the same thing happened. He got progressively worse the more teams figured him out and ended up getting benched. He went 2-4 in his starts, not exceeding 20 points in his last 4 games before getting benched for Colt McCoy. Again, he was given yet ANOTHER opportunity to show and, for the most part, he faltered. Many of us were still surprised he was still a Redskin going into 2015, but still managed to win the starting job after being given the opportunity. Still in his first 6 games of the 2015 season he was below average having a 6/8 TD/INT ratio. Out of those 6 teams, only one finished above .500. Yet still the team continued to ride with him even though for the most part he had shown very little that he was the guy. He goes on a good run to end the year and because they don't reward him with eleventy-billion dollars after getting hot for a few games, he's been ****ed over???

 

Give me a break. The dude had been given as many chances as excuses you guys seem to have made for his poor play. The more I think about it, the more i'm ready to move on. To me he's acting like a spoiled child who thinks he deserves more than he does. To me that doesn't sound like a leader to me.

 

But that's just how I see it. 

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On 2/26/2017 at 0:59 PM, bobandweave said:

Maybe you should follow the news more then you are?

 

http://thefalconswire.usatoday.com/2017/02/25/kyle-shanahans-49ers-sign-falcons-free-agent-dt-target/

 

This player had five offers to choose from and choose the 49ers, feeling around the NFL today is what I said. The 49ers are becoming an attractive place to go now that Kyle is there 

 

What? lol :ols:

 

This doesn't prove anything other than the 49ers probably outbid other teams. And it definitely doesn't give any credence to the idea that players are gonna "flock" to the 49ers over other teams due to Kyle Shanahan.

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50 minutes ago, Tsailand said:

 

Trent has been here as long as anyone, he's seen the bull**** they put Kirk through.  I bet I know whose side he is on in this one.

 

 

Transition tag means we are bidding against Kyle and Sean and up to 28 other NFL GMs, with no compensation if we aren't the high bidder.  What makes you think we would be the high bidder?

 

Waiting until age 31 to be a free agent is fine for a QB.  They are playing effectively longer in today's NFL, as long as they stay uninjured.  31 is the new 21.  Any  team would sign a five year deal with him in 2019 without blinking

 

 

 

 

 

Transition tag means we're not bidding at all. Kirk signs the tag or an offer sheet from another team and we have the right to match. True enough we get no compensation though. Unless you count the likely compensatory pick which could be a 3rd, assuming a large money deal.

 

As for his age, my point wasn't that he won't be able to play, it's that he's stuck playing without a long term contract until he's 31. It also gives us more time to find his replacement.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Birdlives said:

 

Transition tag means we're not bidding at all. Kirk signs the tag or an offer sheet from another team and we have the right to match. True enough we get no compensation though. Unless you count the likely compensatory pick which could be a 3rd, assuming a large money deal.

 

As for his age, my point wasn't that he won't be able to play, it's that he's stuck playing without a long term contract until he's 31. It also gives us more time to find his replacement.

 

 

I'm pretty sure we can put an off on the table same as anyone else

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3 minutes ago, carex said:

I'm pretty sure we can put an off on the table same as anyone else

 

Yes. But we don't have to. Just like now, assuming they do tag him this Wednesday.

Edited by Birdlives

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3 hours ago, elkabong82 said:

 

Let me try to walk you through this because you're obviously having a tough time keeping up.

 

Your claim, backed up by a stat box, was that Cousins can't win without Reed and his production is a big drop off. 

 

I pointed out that your claim is flawed because it included games and stats from when Cousins wasn't a starter and when Reed wasn't a premier, main weapon. Why? Because if Cousins isn't a full time starter and Reed isn't a primary weapon in the pass game, then the argument that Kirk is overly reliant on Reed does NOT apply to those games. I pointed out Reed's past stats to prove that he wasn't a main weapon until 2015. This is why I also pointed out that Reed wasn't even going to be a starter in 2015. Your only excuse for that was some nonsense about blocking, and I call it nonsense because your revisionist history of Reed as a stud TE can't be true if he was a back-up due only to blocking. Seriosuly, nobody had Reed pegged as an elite weapon at the start of 2015. That's not dishonest, it's truth and you're having to excuse away mediocre stats and claim he was so talented but got benched for blocking just to make it work. Reed had potential sure, but it wasn't realized until he had Kirk throwing him the ball and Kirk deserved credit for that whether you like it or not.

 

 

                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
Year Snaps Targets Per Snap Receptions Per Snap Yards Per Snap First Downs Per Snap Catch % TDs Per Snap Fumbles Per Snap
2016 566 0.16 0.12 1.21 0.07 74.20% 0.011 0.002
2015 702 0.16 0.12 1.36 0.08 76.30% 0.016 0.004
Average 634 0.16 0.12 1.28 0.07 75.25% 0.013 0.003
2014 364 0.18 0.14 1.28 0.06 76.90% 0.000 0.003
2013 378 0.16 0.12 1.32 0.08 76.30% 0.008 0.000
Average 371 0.17 0.13 1.30 0.07 76.60% 0.004 0.001

 

Since you seem to have trouble comprehending the fact that health played by far the biggest role in the improvement of Reed's raw stats in 2015 and 2016,  I compiled the stats above to help you.

 

On a per snap basis, in Reed's first two years, he had more targets thrown to him, he had more receptions, he had more yards, he caught the same amount of first downs, he had a higher catch rate, and he had less fumbles than he had in his last two years with Kirk as the starter.  TDs is the only stat where Reed saw improvement under Cousins on a per snap basis.  And I already posted examples on the last page of top 5 TEs who have put up low TD totals, and how fluky TDs can be.

 

But please, tell me again how Reed only became a premier weapon in 2015. 

 

It is clear to see that you are wrong that Reed only "realized his potential" with Kirk throwing him the ball in 2015.  It is much more accurate and honest to say that Reed didn't "put up the raw stats to emerge nationally" until he was able to stay healthy throughout the majority of the season, and he would have emerged nationally no matter who was throwing him the ball.

 

With Reed in the game and healthy, he's always been a stud as a receiving TE.

Edited by HTTRDynasty
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1 hour ago, PartyPosse said:

Give me a break. The dude had been given as many chances as excuses you guys seem to have made for his poor play. The more I think about it, the more i'm ready to move on. To me he's acting like a spoiled child who thinks he deserves more than he does. To me that doesn't sound like a leader to me.

 

But that's just how I see it. 

 

In what way has Kirk acted like a spoiled child?  Because media "speculation" on what he may or may not be thinking means absolutely nothing.  Has he said anything?  Has he done anything?  Ive heard absolutely nothing from him to suggest that, and frankly, I think to tarnish a mans reputation on someone making things up about them is a really poor way to treat people.  Judge people on their own words and actions, anything else is patently unfair.

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49 minutes ago, COWBOY-KILLA- said:

https:///news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2017/02/27/thomas-boswell-says-redskins-could-soon-have-no-choice-but-to-trade-kirk-cousins/?utm_term=.8434f8c35e39

 

put Boswell in the camp that Kirk is gone. Man I would absolutely love for us to step to the table and get this deal done right now.  

 

 

The Washington Post has been running hit pieces on the Redskins for some time now.  They hate the fact they arent being fed information, and have been making stuff up based on "feeling" ever since.

 

I mean seriously, read the DC Sports Blog headlines, it really stinks of petty journalism.  Two posts earlier they couldnt even cover the Capitals without a dig at the Redskins, "A Washington general manager preaches honesty and openness. Imagine that.The Caps GM tells the media what he plans to do, and then he does it. Maybe silence and secrecy aren't always necessary."

 

Also, how can you take a newspaper seriously that after you read 5 articles in a month online locks you out.  In 2017.  Because they havent heard of Ad Revenue.

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The whole "Reed makes Cousins better" narrative.  I don't doubt it going by the numbers, but isn't that true of most elite tight ends around the NFL?  Hell, when Fred Davis was on his way to becoming a very solid TE, didn't he provide a safety valve for Robert all the time?  That seemed like his go-to guy whenever the pressure was on to make a play.

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Just popped in to catch the latest on this discussion. So let's see what we've got here....

 

Aaaaand...

 

Oh Jesus. Popping right back out. Peace.

Edited by Sacks 'n' Stuff
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@Peregrine I hear you man, it's nothing new. But I want to posit something that I've been thinking about.

 

The whole they've been shut out and are fabricating stories to bash the Skins is a little too much for me to believe. 

Ax to grind? Sure. Stick it to them with the truth? Maybe. But the last era of Shannahan was rife with these kinds articles. And after it all went down they were pretty spot on, at least from an outsiders point of view, no one (other reporters, players, fans) disputed much. Generally speaking, maybe I'm wrong. 

 

However, don't get me wrong, I hope that the FO is in full control of what they are doing, no infighting is taking place and we are just making a shrewd calculated decision. Be it right or wrong in the end. IDK.. 

 

What I believe is As is usually the case in a lot disputes/rumors/differences the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

 

1-The Skins are seriously considering moving on from Kirk, Kirk is seriously considering moving on from the Skins. At least today its looks more and more likely that a separation is coming.

 

2-Something is going on in our FO. 

We have really changed and are acting like a real franchise, tight ship, no one talking everyone focused on the task. Shrewd with who we pay, not wooing our FA. More patriot like. AND there may be friction or differences or something happening with Scot, Scot and Bruce, Bruce, Snyder, Gruden. But something, not everyone on same page. Which can be a good thing for organizations if they can work through them. 

 

Time will tell on both these things, just my take. Sorry for the long post just wanted to vent a little.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Peregrine said:

 

In what way has Kirk acted like a spoiled child?  Because media "speculation" on what he may or may not be thinking means absolutely nothing.  Has he said anything?  Has he done anything?  Ive heard absolutely nothing from him to suggest that, and frankly, I think to tarnish a mans reputation on someone making things up about them is a really poor way to treat people.  Judge people on their own words and actions, anything else is patently unfair.

Granted, I do admit that my impression of Kirk's personality now is based mostly off of speculation, but if there's anything that's been consistent it's that the stories of him being unhappy here and him being upset over the offer last year and as we've all said, where there's smoke there's fire. Again it is all speculation but I haven't seen a lot of the speculation that he wants to be here and it's the Skins not willing to open up the checkbook.

 

I also said my impression is mostly based off speculation. The part that isn't is his over the top attitude and general obnoxious demeanor when he does something great (the How Do You Like Me Now, the Scott head rub) and how invisible he gets when things don't go his way. To me, and AGAIN, I will say this is just my own personal opinion, he seems like someone where if things go his way he's the greatest guy to be around but when they don't he throws private tantrums and pouts. So when you say judge people on their own actions, that is my judgement. 

1 hour ago, NoCalMike said:

The whole "Reed makes Cousins better" narrative.  I don't doubt it going by the numbers, but isn't that true of most elite tight ends around the NFL?  Hell, when Fred Davis was on his way to becoming a very solid TE, didn't he provide a safety valve for Robert all the time?  That seemed like his go-to guy whenever the pressure was on to make a play.

Davis had a whopping 31 receptions in his two seasons playing with RG3 so I would say no.

Edited by PartyPosse
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14 hours ago, Tsailand said:

Tsailand's official prediction for how the Kirk Cousins situation will play out:

* Kirk won't sign the tag right away.

* Kirk will fly out west to meet with HC Rams and HC 49ers.

* Neither team will extend him an offer in 2017.

* Then, after he's talked to everyone he's interested in, he'll sign our tag to lock in his $24M.

 

 

Following up my own post, since I realize that "Redskins will tag Cousins and he will sign the tag" is already common knowledge.  The key part of my prediction is that he won't sign the tag right away this time, but take a couple weeks to fake-negotiate with his boys in Cali.  I say fake because they won't seriously try to do a deal in 2017, but just plan for 2018.

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So as I write this post all the top so called top players who would definitely be getting the FT have got them, Berry is very close to getting a new deal. Could this be that we could be working out a LTD with Cousins or is it more likely that we are going to see this drags on and on until the last minute of the FT deadline. Not only that but by not getting a LTD done with Cousins a long time ago it's going to cost us more if we want to resign Jackson or Garcon because of the Brown's contract. 

 

HTTR 

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This is a who blinks first deal .. KCs agent wants the tag but if it is exclusive then it takes away the 49ers ... if Kirk does not sign the tag then. The skins move on to plan B

 

and the media seems to think there is no plan B -  There is always a plan b. The skins might look at this as a semi rebuild - extend Jay let garçon and Jackson hit the market and plan to start Colt OR Nate and bolster the defence feed the offensive line see if offence can survive and if colt or Nate could be servicable - if it does  in which case Jay will be seen as a genius -

 

the offence will grow up with the QB but the OL is in place crowder reed and hopefully Doctson . 

 

The point is after tomorrow balance of power shifts . 

 

The Redskins paid millions to RGIII  for sitting on the bench ... 

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I am starting to think trade this guy. 4th Rd pick makes have decent and he is telling everyone what to do. I understand leverage and I understand he is good.  Considering we throw the ball every down. He would be better with a running game of course but he would not have those stats. The guy that has to go is that so called head coach how looks lost like he can't ring his way around town and is pulled over looking lost. 

 

To Kirk. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. 

 

I heard the the miners do not want to trade because they have too many other needs yet we are supposed to break the bank for an average qb, and has great leverage because the Redskins have not been able to get a qb that was at least reasonably good. 

 

See eek you later. Have fun out west. Gimme that draft pick/picks. I sign Zeitler or Leary in the first minute of free agency then I also get not ask the niners for E. Reed.  The trade is E. Reed and 1st Rd pick or the Niners can draft Tub steak sandwich or Keizer bun or elementary Watson and become the Browns of the east. 

 

I look and and listen to KC recently more and the more I want him gone. Like I said give a running back and our line plus a real left guard and smash everybody. Football is not a completcated game.

 

Furthermore I do not want this guy as the skins qb

Screaming at your boss on national TV.  PLEASE BYE BYE!!

Not to mention our head coach is in SF right now. I am tired of this ineptitude. 

Edited by sebestian

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As tag deadline looms, Redskins' best option could be trading Kirk Cousins

"The Redskins’ problem is that there’s only one team Cousins will sign with right now, according to one source: San Francisco. So Washington doesn’t have much bargaining power with other teams. This isn’t just about Cousins maximizing his financial value; it’s about putting himself in the best position. Reuniting with a coach (Kyle Shanahan) who loves you in an offense you love? That’s a win-win for Cousins. But it's a tough way for the Redskins to maximize his trade value on the market."

 

So, we're going to swap 1st round picks and QBs ? :ph34r::silly:

Edited by FrFan
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13 minutes ago, FrFan said:

As tag deadline looms, Redskins' best option could be trading Kirk Cousins

"The Redskins’ problem is that there’s only one team Cousins will sign with right now, according to one source: San Francisco. So Washington doesn’t have much bargaining power with other teams. This isn’t just about Cousins maximizing his financial value; it’s about putting himself in the best position. Reuniting with a coach (Kyle Shanahan) who loves you in an offense you love? That’s a win-win for Cousins. But it's a tough way for the Redskins to maximize his trade value on the market."

 

So, we're going to swap 1st round picks and QBs ? :ph34r::silly:

 

Article seems like speculation more than anything else. Kirk did pretty damn good in Gruden's offense these last 2 years.. I don't see a meteoric rise statistically over what he's done the last 2 years just because he's in Kyle's offense.

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I guess I am more terrified of Cousins getting this huge contract without Garcon and Jackson. What happens if without those guys Cousins numbers suddenly vanish and we get 6 wins on the year. What then? We would be saddled with a huge contract, a new head coach yet again, and not much room cap wise to get help. This situation reminds me an awful lot of the Flacco situation in Baltimore without a Super Bowl ring or defense to back them up. That to me is very very scary to think about.

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27 minutes ago, FrFan said:

 

So, we're going to swap 1st round picks and QBs ? :ph34r::silly:

Pick 17th + Kirk for Gabbert + 2nd?

That looks like a bad trade for us...

 

 

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if well, i wish cousins would take less but there is no reason for him too. He's got 54mil in his back pocket guaranteed. Now sure what people are upset with him about.... the situation sucks for the redskins but cousins should take what he could get before his noodle arm returns,

4 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

Pick 17th + Kirk for Gabbert + 2nd?

That looks like a bad trade for us...

 

 

 

 

If we cant get two firsts we should just keep him this year. If he plays well next year we will defininatly get atleast two firsts, and if he doesn't there is a possibility we could sign him after a down year,

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The longer this goes on the less I care. I've come to the conclusion that we will continue being a joke around the league forever.

 

 

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Cooley just said it well for me, he made the comments after Sheehan read the tweet below.   Tea leaves might be looking like a trade but its tough for him to buy into that because he said why would the Redskins make a big mess for themselves?     Cooley's theory is the Redskins prepared (speculating) themselves two scenarios:

 

1:  franchise tag.  2.  LTD offer.   He thinks they will offer him something today-tomorrow.  Cooley thinks Kirk does want to be here on a good long term deal. 

 

Source: QB Kirk Cousins would be open to playing for teams other than #Redskins or #49ers if that's how it works out. #Browns intriguing

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Why can't the Redskins even do obvious things gracefully?  Teams do not let 28 year old All Pro  QBs who have the trust, confidence and affection of their teammates and coaches go, especially after they carried the team to the first consecutive whining seasons in a long time and produced a division title.  Sally Jenkins is right, Kirk Cousins is the stability test for the franchise and they have already failed.  NFL pundents can't  identify a similar occurrence because no other franchise is as inept as the Skins.

 

Failing to sign Kirk is beyond stupid.  Fat Albert, McNabb, Griffin and other decisions where so moronic they tested the outer limits of stupid, this is just crazy.  Those fans angry at the process need to blame the Skins.  They screwed up not signing him last year even though they seen him work, progress, contribute and improve for 4 years and for for the inadequate offer thus far this year.  If Cousins has I confidence in the franchise and he wants to go because he is tired being in a soap opera instead of working for an NFL franchise that is enitirely on the Skins.  The smart move would be to extend Gruden and sign Cousins to the giant deal Kirk has earned and get Scot focused on strengthening the defense and running games.

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