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Discussions of a less heavily criticized OL


CommDownMan

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In continuance of this thread, but a new year and a better OL, I wanted to start a new conversation.  There are bits and pieces in different threads, but there was some good talk from guys that understand the OL more than I do and I'm hoping that we can keep this content rolling again.   

 

http://es.redskins.com/topic/388101-discussions-on-a-heavily-criticized-ol/page-20?hl=discussions

 

In the recent year or so, we have had a shift in philosophy that has, at least in my view put people a bit more at ease with our OL. 

 

Tackles- Trent and Moses formed a pretty nice tandem on the ends.  I'm sure more than a one year wonder out of Moses is important for all, but progress over pretty much every player since Jansen.

 

Guard - Scherff showed well as a rookie and has a good chance to improve the next year.

 

That leaves LG and C as the areas of concern.

 

Lauvao- Looked pretty good early and then got hurt.  Went through multiple surgeries and until shows full speed will be a source for concern until we see otherwise.  Also carries a 5 mill cap hit.

 

Long/Kouandjio- Replacement and Back-up when Lauvao went down.  At this point Long seems servicable, but talk seems to be mixed at best.  Long might be tried at C, from things we've seem in the news. 

 

Lichtensteiger- Seems to be the whipping boy on the line (unless we're talking Ribs), and what most seem to argue is the weakest spot on the line.  Carrying a 3,878,125 cap hit don't help those feelings.

 

Ribs/Long?/Reiter- Ribs was playing on a team that surged to a playoff birth.  Has his flaws and notoriously shows up to camp in bad shape.  Team re-signed him, so they see something/have hope for him.  Cap hit ~700k, worth watching.  Long was discussed, would like to see discussion on him at Center as the offseason progresses.

 

Reiter- Honestly, the reason this thought got started.  This linked article is the kind of stuff I love to see. 

 

He towered over the other newcomers, both with his play and his size — he’s added about 15 pounds, and now stands 6-foot-3, 307 pounds.

 

Does anyone know the knocks against him coming out (he was a 7th rounder).  He added weight and a year in with Callahan helps and he seems to have the right mentality.

 

How do you guys see the line ending up? 

 

 

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Maybe it's me, but I read sportswriters/commentators talking Long to try for C then I read stuff by people who don't make their living writing sports saying that Long can't play C.  Anyone got the scoop?  Ribs, I just don't get it.  Apparently he had a ton (errr, no pun intended) of potential coming out of college but he just hasn't shown the mental drive to succeed.  I can see GMSM easily cutting him if the effort isn't there, esp. if Reiter has bulked up a bit and gotten in great shape.  (And to add my 2 cents, both Ribs and Long were taken a round too early.) 

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Maybe it's me, but I read sportswriters/commentators talking Long to try for C then I read stuff by people who don't make their living writing sports saying that Long can't play C.  Anyone got the scoop?  Ribs, I just don't get it.  Apparently he had a ton (errr, no pun intended) of potential coming out of college but he just hasn't shown the mental drive to succeed.  I can see GMSM easily cutting him if the effort isn't there, esp. if Reiter has bulked up a bit and gotten in great shape.  (And to add my 2 cents, both Ribs and Long were taken a round too early.) 

 

 

So last year Jay Gruden said they tried Long at C some and he had trouble with the snaps. The fact thgatg he could not beat out J Le. should be enough to be honest. But here it is again:

http://www.redskins.com/news-and-events/article-1/Redskins-May-Have-Next-Center-On-The-Roster-But-Want-To-Cover-All-Bases/8f44657a-d772-4537-a07c-b4b3d121ec92

 

 

Here is the most pertinent part. Jay states that Long is still struggling with the snap:

 "That might also mean giving Spencer Long a look, too. Already privy to a position change – with experience as a right guard, he filled in at left guard once Shawn Lauvaoicon-article-link.gif was lost for the season with an ankle injury – Long, with some more work during OTA’s, could be a potential fit.

 

“Spencer, we tried to do that a little bit throughout the season in practice,” Gruden said of switching him to center. “But he has a ways to go. His snaps are a little bit off right now. That’s not something you want to go into a game with if you’re not sure about the snaps. We already figured that. But that’s the benefit of OTAs. You get to put people in positions and let them get better and improve.”  

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I'm gonna look like a knucklehead when he gets cut, but I don't think LeRibeus would be here if Scot didn't think he had the effort/work ethic he's looking for.  On top of that, I thought he was serviceable last year.  Now, some of his snaps were awful, but I don't see any reason those can't be cleaned up.  

 

Coming in out of shape (2 years ago was it?) was a big red flag, but I think it would have been a much bigger deal for a vet.  I have to wonder if he took some things for granted, or wasn't totally clued in on how to handle himself (and proper weight gain) at the NFL level. Or so I hope...

 

 

Reiter's situation and dedication is intriguing.  Would have liked to see someone added to the competition, but between the 4 we have, I have hope we'll wind up with at least a decent center by the time the season rolls around.

 

Of course, I'm one who thinks center was just one small problem with the run game.

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Since Long took over for Lauvao, before Lich went down, it's tough to tell which player Long/Ribs would have taken center had injuries happened in reverse.  Long got the first crack at starting and wasn't moved with the 2nd injury.  It does seem like the skins think one of these guys can be a back-up center.

 

“I spent my offseason dedicating my body to the craft, and honestly, it was a discipline thing,” he said. “You have to eat five or six meals, and it has to be good food. You can’t eat pizza and stuff or you’ll slow down, and everybody knows how fast the NFL is.”

 

This is the stuff we've never seen from Ribs, but that doesn't mean much for Reiters until he shows progress vs. the regulars. 


I'm gonna look like a knucklehead when he gets cut, but I don't think LeRibeus would be here if Scot didn't think he had the effort/work ethic he's looking for.  On top of that, I thought he was serviceable last year.  Now, some of his snaps were awful, but I don't see any reason those can't be cleaned up.  

 

Coming in out of shape (2 years ago was it?) was a big red flag, but I think it would have been a much bigger deal for a vet.  I have to wonder if he took some things for granted, or wasn't totally clued in on how to handle himself (and proper weight gain) at the NFL level. Or so I hope...

 

Based on how things have remained quiet for Perry, Lauvao and Lich (and Ribs), I'm thinking the skins are willing to keep the contracts until these guys are beaten out...something that we should want.  Right now, I think Ribs/Long/Reiters battle for a back-up C spot or in the case of Long he could win the LG position.

 

I think the experience last year and an offseason put Ribs in a penciled in spot for back-up C.  But it's an open competition and he has a good shot, but certainly isn't a lock.  There isn't guaranteed money in his contract, to me that's the definition of leaving your options open.

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Injury risk aside, it looks like we're solid at Tackle with Williams and Moses. I was really surprised how serviceable Nsekhe (most of his experience was in the Arena league!) was when he filled in. I think that Cofield also makes the roster as a swing T, who can also play G in a pinch.

 

Scherff is set at RG (predict that he'll be a Pro Bowl alternate this year)

 

LG and Center are obviously the two biggest question marks. Like many positions, I think that we have enough depth to compete but we don't have a difference maker at either position. I'm hoping that Lauvao is recovered enough from his surgeries to start at LG but he's going to have to start running around soon so he has 2-3 months to rebuild his leg strength. That sounds like a stretch right now, so let's pencil Kouandijo into the LG spot to start the year. I don't think that Lich makes the squad (small, aging, injury prone, highish salary) - so I'm penciling in Long as the starter at C and LeRibeus as the back-up. 

 

Williams-Kouandijo-Long-Scherff-Moses would give us the size that Mc/Gruden/Callahan is looking for. It should improve our run blocking as well, so the biggest question is whether Long can master snapping/setting the protection. I think that he will.

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Since Long took over for Lauvao, before Lich went down, it's tough to tell which player Long/Ribs would have taken center had injuries happened in reverse. Long got the first crack at starting and wasn't moved with the 2nd injury. It does seem like the skins think one of these guys can be a back-up center.

This is the stuff we've never seen from Ribs, but that doesn't mean much for Reiters until he shows progress vs. the regulars.

Based on how things have remained quiet for Perry, Lauvao and Lich (and Ribs), I'm thinking the skins are willing to keep the contracts until these guys are beaten out...something that we should want. Right now, I think Ribs/Long/Reiters battle for a back-up C spot or in the case of Long he could win the LG position.

I think the experience last year and an offseason put Ribs in a penciled in spot for back-up C. But it's an open competition and he has a good shot, but certainly isn't a lock. There isn't guaranteed money in his contract, to me that's the definition of leaving your options open.

I tend to agree that Lichtensteiger is likely the front runner for the center spot and the others fight for the backup role (and Long is the front runner for LG as of now). However, I think the team is far more likely to oust the vet (Lichtensteiger) than in years past.

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From http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/aug/13/josh-leribeus-hoping-adjustment-playing-center/?page=all

 

"

LeRibeus appeared in five games during his rookie season but missed all of 2013 due to struggles with his weight. When he showed up to camp he was 30 pounds too heavy with his athleticism badly diminished.

Then, in February 2014, he was diagnosed with ulcerative colitis, a chronic disease which causes inflammation and ulcers in the digestive tract. Three games into last season he got a stomach infection that caused him to lose 25 pounds and struggle with his weight all year."

 

As you can see from my profile pic, I've been rooting for LeRibeus to help reincarnate the Hogs. He has the mental toughness and nasty streak, but he has been a victim of both complacency and a serious GI disorder. UC can be some nasty stuff. I think a lot of posters here like to pick on Josh without any idea that he has struggles that go beyond the weight room.

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I'm gonna look like a knucklehead when he gets cut, but I don't think LeRibeus would be here if Scot didn't think he had the effort/work ethic he's looking for.  On top of that, I thought he was serviceable last year.  Now, some of his snaps were awful, but I don't see any reason those can't be cleaned up.  

 

Coming in out of shape (2 years ago was it?) was a big red flag, but I think it would have been a much bigger deal for a vet.  I have to wonder if he took some things for granted, or wasn't totally clued in on how to handle himself (and proper weight gain) at the NFL level. Or so I hope...

 

I think you mean we had to give Bill Callahan time with him.  Ribs was one of the top 2 pulling guards in his draft class and Foerster was a ZBS coach.  If he doesn't show well in camp this year you'd have to think he's gone.

It would be great if Reiter really did show up nasty and ready to play.

 

How awesome would that be?  We're so overdue for a lot of things, but getting a late round gem for the offensive line is one of them.

I tend to agree that Lichtensteiger is likely the front runner for the center spot and the others fight for the backup role (and Long is the front runner for LG as of now). However, I think the team is far more likely to oust the vet (Lichtensteiger) than in years past.

 

One thing I noticed during the Packers game, is that Cousins and Lich seemed to both be calling out blitz protections and I'm sure it was confusing for the rest of the line.  I get that sometimes the C alerts the QB and the line of things that they may not see, but at times they were talking at the same time. 

 

I know Lich called the blitz pro early in the season, but when he was shelved Cuzzo picked that up and we started winning football games and playing well.  Amazing.

 

I might be over-thinking that a bit, but there were more than a couple of things that gave me pause about whether or not Lich was ready to play in that game and maybe we have a different outcome if he isn't playing.

 

But I agree, as of this minute and based off of what we fans know, he has to be the front runner.

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I mean right now, we've got 2 very high 1rst rounders and 2 third rounders starting and that's great that we've invested so much in the line and all, but seriously, one of these late rounders needs to pay off.

 

We've got to have one of the highest cumulative draft picked Olines in the league. 

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Part of me wants to go back to Long at LG and Ribs at C, just to see where that continuity takes us.

Many in the "Remaining Needs" thread are putting center up as one of the big reasons our run game stunk (for most of the year), but I've been saying for a while that the issue with the line (IMO) seemed to be less that we had a weak link, and more that we struggled with consistency. On any given play, several guys would hit their blocks and any one guy would make a mistake. Well, if the problem is consistency, then that can (mostly?) be solved through repetition/experience and continuity.

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Part of me wants to go back to Long at LG and Ribs at C, just to see where that continuity takes us.

Many in the "Remaining Needs" thread are putting center up as one of the big reasons our run game stunk (for most of the year), but I've been saying for a while that the issue with the line (IMO) seemed to be less that we had a weak link, and more that we struggled with consistency. On any given play, several guys would hit their blocks and any one guy would make a mistake. Well, if the problem is consistency, then that can (mostly?) be solved through repetition/experience and continuity.

 

Stage 1 of getting over the last 15 years for fans was to kick the high priced FA spending sprees on the offseason.

 

Stage 2 will be getting comfortable with having the patience for players to develop.  There has been losts of posts about bringing in players, but that's not the long term goal.  For a long time we traded picks or needed players when injuries happen, we're used to plugging the hole from the outside.  We made the playoffs with Ribs as a critical piece at center.  Could he have been better, yes. 

 

One benefit that we have not seen in a long time is continuity.  I'm not sure, but I believe it was Jason Campbell, had a article at one point that he had 4 offensive coaches in 4 years.  As you mention getting guys reps and game time, now an offseason to work at it.  It would be great if we had an answer for LG and C for a long time currently on the roster.

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Nice Arie K interview. I hope he becomes our starting LG. He's a big boy, but footwork, hands, intelligence etc. all play in. I am thinking he makes a big jump this year. Alabama is one of the biggest programs in the nation. I hope he earns success.

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http://realredskins.com/2016/05/19/need-to-know-can-kouandjio-push-his-way-into-the-redskins-starting-lineup/

 

Can Arie Kouandjio push his way into the starting lineup? We haven’t seen him on the field yet this year but I’ve been told he’s up to about 325 pounds, up from 310 last year. He has the power and the nasty attitude that the team likes to have on the line. Did he use his year on the 53-man roster to polish his technique enough to possibly push past Shawn Lauvao and push Spencer Long over to center? We will have to wait until training camp to really get a handle on where Kouandjio is; he is one player who needs to be evaluated with full pads on.

 

I've seen things that they liked him and his size at 310.  If the footwork is there and the nastiness remains, that's a scary dude.

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Callahan called Arie the most talented 4th rounder he'd seen last year. Considering the magic he worked with Moses (coming off of serious injury!) in one off season, I think I'll actually be disappointed if AK is not the starting LG by the end of preseason.

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Callahan called Arie the most talented 4th rounder he'd seen last year. Considering the magic he worked with Moses (coming off of serious injury!) in one off season, I think I'll actually be disappointed if AK is not the starting LG by the end of preseason.

I'd love that, and I think most of us would love to see him there. And if we can upgrade C with either Long or that other kid, I'd feel much better about the OL.

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I think Lavao is on the chopping block.  Im not sure if he could be a designated June 1st cut but I know he has a pretty bit cap number.  I think cutting him would help in that aspect and I think we actually have the depth with Ribs/Long/Kouandjio/Litch.  Remember we drafted Ribs as a guard so he is interchangable as well as Long and Litch. So if Kouandjio shows anything I think it would be a good idea.  Thoughts?

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I think Lavao is on the chopping block. Im not sure if he could be a designated June 1st cut but I know he has a pretty bit cap number. I think cutting him would help in that aspect and I think we actually have the depth with Ribs/Long/Kouandjio/Litch. Remember we drafted Ribs as a guard so he is interchangable as well as Long and Litch. So if Kouandjio shows anything I think it would be a good idea. Thoughts?

Lavauro is on the block only if he is not healthy. If he's healthy, he's better than anyone we had last year, not factoring in improvements. If he's not, and there is some doubt if he will be, then moves might be made.

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Lavauro is on the block only if he is not healthy. If he's healthy, he's better than anyone we had last year, not factoring in improvements. If he's not, and there is some doubt if he will be, then moves might be made.

Yeah, also good factor in that if Long wins the center spot and Kouandijo wins at LG, we're stuck with LeRibeus and an UDFA as the backup guards if we cut Lauvao. Not that I want to pay a backup guard anywhere near as much as Lauvao is making, but we could be shooting our depth in the foot if things panned out that way.

Speaking of LeRibeus, PFF had this to say (regarding his status as a FA):

C Josh LeRibeus

LeRibeus looked like a bust through his first three years in the league. Drafted between the QBs in 2012 (third round) he saw only 174 snaps in his first two years. LeRibeus got an opportunity when Kory Lichtensteiger went down with injury early in the year, but still looked some way off of NFL-caliber, recording a -16.7 cumulative grade in his first six games (0.0 is average). However, experience brought improvement to such an extent that LeRibeus recorded a positive grade in his final seven games. He allowed just a sack, two hits, and six hurries in those games, and made some impressive reach-blocks in Washington’s zone-rushing scheme. It’s possible that the improvement in LeRibeus’ performances was merely coincidental, but stability is key on the offensive line, suggesting he deserves another shot.

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Yeah, also good factor in that if Long wins the center spot and Kouandijo wins at LG, we're stuck with LeRibeus and an UDFA as the backup guards if we cut Lauvao. Not that I want to pay a backup guard anywhere near as much as Lauvao is making, but we could be shooting our depth in the foot if things panned out that way. 

Litch can play guard as well so if Long takes the Center position and Kouandjio wins LG then you have 2 capable back ups in Ribs a nd Litch with plenty of experience and a lot cheaper then Lauvao that can play 2 positions.  This is why I think he is expendable. 

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