The immigration thread: American Melting Pot or Get off my Lawn

[Larry]

55 minutes ago, tshile said:

I’m guessing this will cause people to leave and fewer to try to come here? The though of permanently being separated from your children? 

 

Maybe I'm misreading you, here, so I want to be sure. Are you actually attempting to defend a government policy of permanently being separated from your children for misdemeanor offenses, for the purpose of discouraging said offense, by asking whether it might work?

[twa]

Why do you say permanently?

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

I’m guessing this will cause people to leave and fewer to try to come here? The though of permanently being separated from your children? 

 

And your OK with that as a tactic?

[visionary]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

I’m guessing this will cause people to leave and fewer to try to come here? The though of permanently being separated from your children? 

Our immigration policies seem to be discouraging tourism and visitors more than anything else so far.

[tshile]

17 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Maybe I'm misreading you, here, so I want to be sure. Are you actually attempting to defend a government policy of permanently being separated from your children for misdemeanor offenses, for the purpose of discouraging said offense, by asking whether it might work?

 

You are misreading.

 

 

5 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

And your OK with that as a tactic?

 

No? Why would you even ask?

(rhetorical question of course)

 

3 minutes ago, visionary said:

Our immigration policies seem to be discouraging tourism and visitors more than anything else so far.

That wouldn’t shock me. 

 

15 minutes ago, twa said:

Why do you say permanently?

 

Because that’s the notion being pushed right now. That these kids are separated from their parents and the government doesn’t want to, or can’t, and possible never wants to, or never will be able to, reunite them again. Whether that’s through evilness or incompetence or a combination. 

[Larry]

1 minute ago, tshile said:

You are misreading.

 

It would appear that others are misreading, too. In the same way. Perhaps if you could clarify exactly what the purpose of your question was?

[tshile]

Just now, Larry said:

 

It would appear that others are misreading, too. In the same way. Perhaps if you could clarify exactly what the purpose of your question was?

 

To ask the question. Maybe you and others could simply consider answering it instead of trying to be clever and play games?

 

the other two had no problem simply taking the question at face value. 

 

[visionary]

 

 

 

[MartinC]

15 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

To ask the question. Maybe you and others could simply consider answering it instead of trying to be clever and play games?

 

 

Well if you want a straight answer it is no. To consider leaving your home nation and almost everything you own behind and making a hazardous journey to try to find a better life for you and your family you have to be desperate. So desperate to risk of temporary separation from your kids - not even this regime is evil enough to outright suggest separation might be permanent (although their implementation of their own policy is so incompetent its highly likely some separations will turn out to be permanent.) 

 

Indeed numbers seem to be increasing. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/despite-trump-admin-crackdown-illegal-immigration-border-increased-may-n880686

 

As to the impact on tourism - vistior numbers are down 4% in contrast to a 7% increase worldwide. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-travel/u-s-fails-to-keep-pace-with-global-tourism-boom-idUSKCN1GL21E

 

The good news is Trump's own business is suffering more than most 

 

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/382814-trump-tower-condos-value-dropping-faster-than-comparable-properties

 

http://time.com/money/5188095/donald-trump-net-worth-2018/

 

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-donald-trump-brand-20180420-story.html

 

https://www.elitedaily.com/p/ivanka-trumps-brand-is-trying-online-shopping-after-being-dumped-by-stores-8834262

[visionary]

Aw, man....

 

 

[tshile]

1 minute ago, MartinC said:

Well if you want a straight answer it is no. To consider leaving your home nation behind and making a hazardous journey to try to find a better life for you and your family you have to be desperate. So desperate to risk of temporary separation from your kids - not even this regime is evil enough to outright suggest separation might be permanent (although their implementation of their own policy is so incompetent its highly likely some separations will turn out to be permanent.) 

 

I was thinking more long term. That they'd consider going somewhere else if the risk here was permanent separation. That immigrants that are currently here, would prefer to go somewhere else before facing something bad here. Legal and illegal alike. I'm wondering if we're permanently damaging our situation in regards to immigrants. Or if this isn't bad enough, and if their desire to be here is so great, that its just a speed bump in the bigger picture.

 

Maybe I'm being overly cynical with the use of permanent, but the idea of reuniting people given what we've been told so far seems laughable to me.

 

 

[MartinC]

41 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

I was thinking more long term. That they'd consider going somewhere else if the risk here was permanent separation. That immigrants that are currently here, would prefer to go somewhere else before facing something bad here. Legal and illegal alike. I'm wondering if we're permanently damaging our situation in regards to immigrants. Or if this isn't bad enough, and if their desire to be here is so great, that its just a speed bump in the bigger picture.

 

There is already a reduction in highly skilled immigrants and I personally know of some very skilled technical professionals who were in the US who have moved to Canada. They were Indian and moved partly because of the increased time it would take them to get Green Cards under this regime and partly because of the overt racism that is enabled by this Government. 

 

I don't think there is any question this Government has diminished the United States in the eyes of the rest of the World. Its uncertain if that damage is permanent. 

 

Quote

 

Maybe I'm being overly cynical with the use of permanent, but the idea of reuniting people given what we've been told so far seems laughable to me.

 

 

 

Around half of the children who were separated have already been reunited with their parents.

[Larry]

6 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

To ask the question.

 

OK. So, you're going to pretend that you're "asking a question" to which you and everybody else already know the answer, for no purpose whatsoever. 

 

And expect anybody with a functioning mind to believe this obvious lie. 

 

Since I used to respect you, I'll pretend to believe you. 

 

Yes, it is possible (in fact, I would say likely) that the Trump administration's deliberate policy of "permanently being separated from your children" for misdemeanor offenses may deter people from committing said offense. 

 

Now that I've responded to the question which you asked for no purpose whatsoever, I assume that you will 

 

1). Not attempt to take the answer which you already knew, and attempt to use it to support the agenda which you obviously intended, but have claimed you didn't. 

 

2). Respond to my question, which I (equally honestly) assert has no agenda whatsoever, I'm simply asking the question for no purpose whatsoever. 

 

Do you believe that a nationwide policy of cutting off the feet of people who are suspected (but not tried, let alone convicted) of trying to run from a police officer, would discourage some people from doing so?

[tshile]

5 minutes ago, Larry said:

OK. So, you're going to pretend that you're "asking a question" to which you and everybody else already know the answer, for no purpose whatsoever. 

 

And expect anybody with a functioning mind to believe this obvious lie. 

 

Since I used to respect you, I'll pretend to believe you. 

 

You're such a prick. I asked an honest question and you can't help but try to be clever about it and take shots.

 

Maybe Larry, you're the one with the problem.

 

9 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

There is already a reduction in highly skilled immigrants and I personally know if some very skilled technical professionals who were in the US who have moved to Canada. They were Indian and moved not partly because of the increased time it would take them to get Green Cards under this regime and partly because of the overt racism that is enabled by this Government. 

 

I don't think there is any question this Government has diminished the United States in the eyes of the rest of the World. Its uncertain if that damage is permanent. 

 

Yeah, and i'm in the middle of building a house right now and the guys running the project have been complaining about how hard it is to find day laborers - the skilled and unskilled types. And it's not like I'm in the middle of nowhere, I'm on the outskirts of NOVA.

 

I think the "america first" crowd is going to find out rather quickly how expensive it is to keep the immigrants out. The economists have been trying to tell them for years.

 

 

9 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

Around half of the children who were separated have already been reunited with their parents.

 

I've been on vacation for a week. I did not know that. I assumed we were roughly where we were when I left. I don't feel bad about making that assumption

 

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

 

You're such a prick.

 

Lets keep this all civil on all sides of this debate. No personal attacks.

[Larry]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

I was thinking more long term. That they'd consider going somewhere else if the risk here was permanent separation. That immigrants that are currently here, would prefer to go somewhere else before facing something bad here. Legal and illegal alike. I'm wondering if we're permanently damaging our situation in regards to immigrants. Or if this isn't bad enough, and if their desire to be here is so great, that its just a speed bump in the bigger picture.

 

Now, as to legal immigration, yeah, I could absolutely see that recent actions could well have diminished our desirability in that area.  

 

I'm not sure that the kidnapping thing would be the biggest part of that, though.  Maybe a factor, but maybe not the biggest.  I'm not sure that an imaginary legal immigrant would consider that as a risk.  At least not by itself.  

 

But it is part of a larger context.  Of attacks on all immigration, not just illegals.  

 

The Trump administration's promise that, if I'm a doctor or an engineer from India, and I come to the US, then no, I won't be able to bring my wife or my parents over after several years.

 

Government task forces looking for American citizens that they can revoke and deport.  The government reneging on deals they've made with non-citizen military personnel.  Backing down on people who aided our military in Muslim countries who were promised a visa.  I could see this as a pattern that says that I can't trust America to honor the promises that they've already made, to me.  

 

Heck, the number of people from India getting killed on buses and places by Trump supporters who think they look Muslim.  

 

So yeah, I could easily see that maybe America isn't as desirable a place for that imaginary doctor from India as it used to be.  But I'm not sure that the policy of kidnapping children is the biggest part of that decision, in that person's mind.  

[Cooked Crack]

1 hour ago, visionary said:

Aw, man....

 

 

Please be civil to these monsters!

[Larry]

15 hours ago, visionary said:

 

 

Haven't read this whole article.  (It's really long).  But at least the parts I've read seem to tell the story of three families in a small town in Kentucky who all seem to fit the same pattern.  

 

Illegal immigrant Dad.  Married wife (immigration status not mentioned, but I assume legal.)  US Citizen kid, preschool age.  Long term job, but living in low-class conditions.  

 

ICE comes to town for large scale raids on employers and such.  They weren't targeting Dad (they were looking for someone else).  But Dad answered when they questioned him in Spanish, they check Dad's status, and haul him in.  

 

Family (the story especially focuses on the traumatized kid) is now in terror that the government is going to come take away Daddy.  They've quit their jobs, and are hiding in their apartment, afraid to step out.  

 

My question for the board - What should be done with people like this?  

 

I absolutely can see the downside of a policy that says that if a criminal gets away with his crime for long enough, then he gains the right to keep committing the crime as long as he wants.  

 

(Or, do you look at it as though he committed the crime when he originally came here, and say that there's a statute of limitations on that crime?)  

 

My personal opinion?  I don't think there is a response to this question that isn't a bad one.  

 

[MartinC]

21 minutes ago, Cooked Crack said:

Please be civil to these monsters!

 

If they are members of this board posting - yes be civil if you want to retain your posting rights. Feel free to attack their ideas and conduct but not them personally. Those are the rules of this board you agreed to abide by when you signed up.

 

What you do off the board is your own business.

[visionary]

I don't know, it's tough.  Maybe there should be a way to legalize people (after vetting and some process) if they've been here for over ten years or something. It seems like the culture of fear that surrounds all this is unhelpful and dangerous for everyone.  I definitely think there needs to be more discussion and looking into why people are choosing to come illegally or unable to keep their legal status if they did come legally. 

[PleaseBlitz]

5 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

What should be done with people like this?  

 

I absolutely can see the downside of a policy that says that if a criminal gets away with his crime for long enough, then he gains the right to keep committing the crime as long as he wants.  

 

(Or, do you look at it as though he committed the crime when he originally came here, and say that there's a statute of limitations on that crime?)  

 

My personal opinion?  I don't think there is a response to this question that isn't a bad one.  

 

 

What should be done with people that are here illegally, but are otherwise complying with all laws and contributing to society / working / raising a family and otherwise doing exactly what good citizens are supposed to be doing?  You should let then continue doing exactly what they are doing and give them an avenue to citizenship.  

 

It has nothing to do with whether a criminal has gotten away with a crime long enough.  It's about whether that persons "crime" has ultimately hurt society (or anyone) or helped society. 

 

If it makes you feel better, prosecute him for his crime, then take into account the mediating circumstances (as happens with ALL prosecutions), drop it to a misdemeanor and tell him to keep his nose clean (as he is already doing).  

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

[Cooked Crack]

15 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

If they are members of this board posting - yes be civil if you want to retain your posting rights. Feel free to attack their ideas and conduct but not them personally. Those are the rules of this board you agreed to abide by when you signed up.

 

What you do off the board is your own business.

I was referring to the Trump adminstration.  But yeah message received.

[Larry]

Yeah, to me, if nothing else, it seems like it would be bad for the country to get rid of all of the illegals.  (Bad for the economy, if nothing else.)  From there, it's a short trip to deciding which groups we should pick as the ones we don;t want to get rid of.  

 

To me, the Dreamers seems like the ideal choice for who should be at the top of the list.  The criteria that I originally heard for them was:  

 

1)  Came to the country at least 10 years ago, at the age of 10 or less.

2)  Obtained a HS diploma or GED in the US.

3)  (Obviously) no crimes committed (other than, I would say, those related to their illegal status.  I think I'd say that using a fake ID and/or SSN to get work shouldn't count.)

4)  And have (or are willing to) either obtained some kind of college degree, or served a tour in the military.  

 

To me, if you're going to have to let some of the illegals stay, those sound like the first group I'd pick.  

 

Maybe people like that article is about should be the second.  Wage earning head of household, been in the country at least 10 years.  US citizen child.  Maybe some kind of probationary period?  5-10 years of green card status, and if you're still clean, then you're eligible for citizenship?  

[tshile]

@PleaseBlitz I don’t think the way you minimalize being illegal is going to win over anyone for you. 

 

You can say say you don’t care but obviously you should, cause things are going the other way right now due to the last election. We obviously need to convince some people that immigrants are not something to fear/hate if we want things to change. 

 

Not everyone that has an issue with coming/being here illegally is a racist.