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Jay Gruden and the new Philosophy - and all things coaching...hell it is offseason after all.


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Scott has made a big play of putting his stamp on the roster . There is a clear emphasis on size and power. But all of the new additions appear to fit Scotts background but I am not sure it is such a good match with Jay Gruden who's first instinct seems to be air it out , as indicated with his time at the bengals and here last season . 

 

Now with Cincy Gruden as the offensive co-ordinator had a good pair of running backs a big offensive line a strong defence and a limited but possibly over achieving QB but the closest he got to a balanced offence was a 56:44 ratio.

 

Last season with the QB carousel he would go away from the run way too quick and imho opinion the offence was an amalgam of poorly fitting ideas to players some WCO, some zone runs some power man but none of it seemed well communicated or thought out . It all accumulated to a 60:40 pass run ratio. 

 

I am optimistic for the season I like everything we have done this offseason I really want to believe in the team  . I really do and I actually have high hopes for the revamped coaching staff on defence (i would have liked to have kept Baker but KO is a safe pair of hands) and the addition of Callaghan and Cavanaugh and that makes me feel a little better  but that kind of came to a juddering halt when i heard Jay talking for the first time in a while . 

 

Then the worry set in. 

 

There is a I am doing this my way defiance to his demeanour. He looks controlled in what he is saying but there are cracks to make me think he is thinking yes yes I will say what i need right now but this is my show - and well I think the guy is a bafoon . 

 

the one thing I cling to is Joe Gibbs was an air it out guy he had a baptism of fire but he soon relised the way to win in Washington is to do it on the ground and while Bethard and He may have disagreed on specific players they did manage to co-exist . 

 

Can Jay have that kind of awakening ? 

 

I hope so but I am not so sure - and my worry is that everything that has been done well is going to be undone by incompetence at the HC position ... any thoughts ? 

 

 

 

 

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I don't see us suddenly turning back the clock and taking the whole league back to 1983. The game is completely different now. Yes Scott likes big guys, yes he wants them to be physical...but that doesn't mean we're going to be running the ball 70% of the time or something. Having a good running game is important but having a good passing game is equally important in most cases. With the rules the way they are now, its a passing league. Bring back the big boys, great. Get physical and mean, great. But we aren't suddenly back in Gibbs 1. I wouldn't be surprised if Jay ran the ball a bit more than last year but I would be shocked if it were more than 50% run. Jay is still the coach. Only thing Scott can do is fire him if he really hates what he's doing.

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Should be interesting considering Jay to me comes off impatient in general and IMO that pertains to his play calling too.  Often to establish a running game, you have to be patient and let it ride even if its not successful in the first quarter, etc.   That's my biggest question mark because it seems like Jay at least rhetoric wise seems to be embracing a more run heavy offense but can Jay the play caller stick with it through thick and thin?  My hunch is no.  But will see. 

 

As an ex-QB, he seems to like to throw-pass heavy.  If I recall last year we were around 60% even though arguably we had QBs who were struggling.  About 35 throws a game.  I'd like to get under 30 like Dallas did and Seattle typically does.

 

That was a criticism of him in Cincy especially pertaining to their playoff losses.

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Not calling for 70:30 run pass but look at the 49ers, Seahawks and even Green Bay (surprisingly) all ran the ball more than they passed in 2014 and all serious contenders (until San Fran imploded) - in an era that seems polluted with spread concepts and high tempo offense grabbing all the headlines - it seems the old adage about running the rock and strong D wins championships....

 

In the one superbowl that I remember as an out and out air it out affair (the Colts Saints game) even that came down to who had the least worst defence.

 

 and that is the philosophy Scott seams to have brought with him.

 

But it is not - or had not been what Jay likes to do  - or am I reading him wrong ?  

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I think Skinsinparadise made a good point...Gruden was a QB and he seems to like to pass the ball as a play caller too. He was the same way in Cincy. That certainly could be somewhat opposed to the way SM wants to build the team, so if Gruden refuses to adapt and at least give some way I could see him gone after this year. I'd rather not have another coaching search but if SM thinks it is best for the long term health of the organization then it is what it is. I have a feeling Gruden will probably acquiesce some and run the ball more but I wouldn't bank on anything more than 50/50 run/pass...which would actually be fine with me.

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Here's my concern and it may not be fair.

 

When Jay came in last year, he said he was going to keep what works and adapt to his personnel. He really didn't. He failed to do that both in the running game or the passing game. As a consequence, both regressed. More, one could argue that the offense got worse as the year progressed so much so that the resounding belief was that this was a talentless football team that could only win if Jay had "his guys" that fit "his system."

 

I think Jay says the right things, he may even mean them, when it comes to the running game and adapting his style, but that his philosophy or habits are too engrained. He lacks imagination and adaptability. The disdain and disgust he shows for the run option is one example. A great coach will experiment and incorporate anything, develop new stuff, and steal what works. Clearly, with Seattle, we know that the run option works in the NFL and almost all NFL teams include elements in their package. Heck, we've seen Peyton Manning run it and he runs a 12.5 second forty yard dash these days!

 

The unpreparedness at HC in organizing pre-game stretches and a hundred other things bug me. Gruden had been a HC before. That was one of his selling points. Maybe not at the top level, but at a lower level where he probably had to where a bunch of hats and orchestrate everything. His structural confusion speaks badly of him.

 

I do believe that Gruden was hamstrung in his first year by major weaknesses in the o-line and in QB play. He did some pretty good things. Managing to win a game while relying on your 3rd QB against a playoff team is impressive. More, his team rallied (after laying down to die for a few games.)  After Gruden got angry enough he got the team playing again at least on the offensive side. The defense  completely packed it in. I hope his support of Haslett was just politics and empty words.

 

In the end, Jay can't enter the season with a fresh slate, but I am very much pulling for him to win. The

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But it is not - or had not been what Jay likes to do  - or am I reading him wrong ?  

 

In Cincy he was around 57% and that's with a defensive minded head coach.  It doesn't seem to be what Jay likes to do.  Granted there are plenty of coaches who like to throw the ball, some more than he does, so he's not unique but yeah I think a run heavy offense -- Seattle or Dallas 2014 style would reflect a change of approach from Jay.

 

Scot's Seattle-SF bring on the big boys -- ball control-balanced style offense doesn't seem to jive with Jay's past.  Having said that, Jay is coming off as if he's on board so we will see.   I am just stuck on the idea of you can have a game plan of going heavy run but do you have the discipline and patience of sticking with it throughout the game.  I can almost visualize the jay press conferences "yeah man, we intended to run but the opponents were ready for it, we couldn't keep going on 2 yards a carry so we had to change it up in the 2nd quarter."  Should be interesting to watch though, maybe Jay does have the patience, will see.

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Well, at the same time you do have to take what the defense gives you and attack their weaknesses. If a defense is continuously stacking the box and stopping you for 2 yard runs then just blindly sticking with that isn't a great idea. That's why at least a respectable passing game is important.

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I noted that defenses did try to take away the running game last year, because they felt it was the easiest way to stop the Skins offense.

Moreover, the poor O-line run blocking and erratic passing game didn't help Morris to find the openings he needed.

That probably contributed to Gruden trying to jump-start the offense via aerial attack. (Also, he was probably trying to discover what his QBs were able to handle.)

Who knows what he'll do this year.

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You don't need to run the ball more, you need to run the ball more effectively when you do.

This in turn makes airing it out much more successful.

 

The only advise I would have for Jay from the Gibbs philosophy is if a play works, keep running it until the defense stops it.

Also you don't need 1,000 plays in the playbook. Practice the ones you do well 1,000 times instead.

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We ran the ball more often than people realize last year and we sucked at it.

 

We have DJax, Garcon and Reed at the top of the roster and an Oline that doesn't blow open holes. Why would we try and constantly pound the ball?

 

If our Oline or more importantly, our TEs and RBs help our Oline (which they were atrocious at doing) keep our QB upright, why wouldn't we pass the ball a lot?

 

I'm a 3 yards and a cloud of dust kind of guy, but what did Seattle and Dallas have that we didn't? Powerful Olines and big powerful running backs. Now, we drafted some beef last year and this year as well as a big RB, so that might change. 

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We ran the ball more often than people realize last year and we sucked at it.

 

We have DJax, Garcon and Reed at the top of the roster and an Oline that doesn't blow open holes. Why would we try and constantly pound the ball?

 

If our Oline or more importantly, our TEs and RBs help our Oline (which they were atrocious at doing) keep our QB upright, why wouldn't we pass the ball a lot?

 

I'm a 3 yards and a cloud of dust kind of guy, but what did Seattle and Dallas have that we didn't? Powerful Olines and big powerful running backs. Now, we drafted some beef last year and this year as well as a big RB, so that might change. 

 

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/team-stat/rushing-offense-category

 

We were 21st in rushing attempts last season, passed about 60% of the time, so not sure how to categorize it as we ran more than people realized.  We were a relatively pass happy offense but not the most pass happy offense in the NFL.  Personally, I like the idea of helping young Qbs whether its RG3, Cousins or whomever by not putting the offense primarily on their shoulders like Seattle does with the running game to help Wilson.

 

Though I do agree with your point about Seattle and Dallas (more so Dallas) has better O lines.  Though wasn't the whole drill on the nimble-quick but not big Shanny built offensive line is that they are better at running blocking versus pass blocking?  Especially with Forester still in the mix last year and them mostly sticking to zone runs. 

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If Scott wants to build us like the 49ers & Seahawks, I am fine with that, but that means this is going to take a few offseasons to accomplish. Those teams didn't get good overnight.  The 49ers were a perennial loser for a long time while they amassed all that talent. The key was that they hit on a lot of their draft picks and they didn't trade them away and rely on free agency.

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https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/team-stat/rushing-offense-category

 

We were 21st in rushing attempts last season, passed about 60% of the time, so not sure how to categorize it as we ran more than people realized.  We were a relatively pass happy offense but not the most pass happy offense in the NFL.  Personally, I like the idea of helping young Qbs whether its RG3, Cousins or whomever by not putting the offense primarily on their shoulders like Seattle does with the running game to help Wilson.

 

Though I do agree with your point about Seattle and Dallas (more so Dallas) has better O lines.  Though wasn't the whole drill on the nimble-quick but not big Shanny built offensive line is that they are better at running blocking versus pass blocking?  Especially with Forester still in the mix last year and them mostly sticking to zone runs. 

I know we weren't tops in rushing, but middle of the pack. People just act lke we passed every down. Alf got his carries.

Look at Alfs numbers. He was tops in the league for 2 seasons in a RB themed O, last year, he got his caries and still barely got 1,000. We sorely lacked a 3rd down back and quick passing game last season. The parts just weren't there. 

Hopefully Jamison and Jones can add that element. I don't know if it was Helu and Roberts doing that poor of a job, the QB, the HC or the Oline or even a combination or all of them, but we are clearly getting personnel more suited to do what JG did in Cincy, instead of Shanny here.

 

I think our O this year will be fairly similar to what Seattle does. I also think we have some better pieces. Same with San Fran. We clearly have better WRs/TEs. I also think our D will be similar. 

 

We also seem to be building to handle the 4rth Q better.

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If Scott wants to build us like the 49ers & Seahawks, I am fine with that, but that means this is going to take a few offseasons to accomplish. Those teams didn't get good overnight.  The 49ers were a perennial loser for a long time while they amassed all that talent. The key was that they hit on a lot of their draft picks and they didn't trade them away and rely on free agency.

Well, we've NAILED the perennial loser part. ols 

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The running game sets up the passing game and vice versa. Balanced capability is required. Attack the opposing teams weakness. We need both a strong running game AND a strong passing game to get past 8-8.

And don't think for a second that GMSM doesn't have someone else in mind as coach, and QB, if reasonable success is not acheived. He is building this team and there are only two people that can stop him.

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So as Gruden began to catch some flack for getting away from running the ball, I noticed we began to commit to running on first down. The problem with that approach was 1) it became a clear tendency for teams to attack, 2) he didn't often call a run on second down, and 3) he seemed to rarely call for PA on first downs.

Yes, he was handcuffed in many ways by poor blocking in the both the ground game and passing, as well as the qbs making numerous mistakes. And yes, the defensive issues (both allowing scores as well as the lack of turnovers) ST issues meant more pressure on the offense (qbs in particular) and Gruden. Obviously the offenses struggles were also magnified by the qbs still learning the system.

Not sure that Gruden did himself any favors with the semi predictable play calling though - leading to a feeling of 'nothing is working'. Unfortunately, Gruden's honesty lead to some of his frustration being aired in public.

So, if the changes pan out, we'll be seeing

An attacking defense (and ST) that should/could lead to more turnovers/opportunities for the offense

Qbs that feel more comfortable in the system

Better efficiency in the run game

Less pressure on the offense to succeed

The question becomes (particularly if the changes do pan out) can Gruden look at himself in the mirror and fix some of his own issues. At the very least, I think the breath of fresh air brought in by Scot, the addition of Callaghan and Cavanaugh to take some off his plate, and having a year under his belt will allow Gruden to feel more comfortable (and less pressure). Hopefully this cuts down on his frustration while allowing him more freedom/time to focus on getting the team in synch.

Winning cures all. If the team struggles though, I'm afraid the frustration could return and demoralize the team and HC.

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I think you have no idea how good of a coach Gruden is. And that's not meant as an insult. I don't think any of us know.

 

The FACT is that this team has sucked for a LONG time. I've been saying forever that it's the talent and I feel justified in my position. How many coaches have we been through? Every year its the same thing from fans, complaining about play calling because that's all they know from Madden. But the best play still sucks when players don't execute. I believe we took a giant leap forward (still with a long way to go) with this draft. I expect the top 4 or 5 picks to either start or contribute heavily.

 

No coach can do anything by himself. He cant preach competition when the owner demands the star player play. Gruden was the first coach i've seen stand up to a star players BS and call him out on it and I give him mountains of credit for that. Griffin needed someone to get tough on him. If he is ever to be the player he can be, he needs to stop believing he has arrived and work at his craft like it was his last chance in the NFL. He needs to stop talking and start doing. I believe he can do it but I don't believe he would have set his mind to it without the wakeup call Gruden gave him.  (if he cant... NEXT!.... because team comes before individual players no matter what their name or how high they were drafted)

 

I'm calling it now.... This team is going to make HUGE steps forward and at the very least give us a shot at the playoffs. The power running game with Sheriff, Jones, and the new coach will help keep drives from stalling. Our defense wont go from worst to first but more beef up front and an improved secondary should prevent a few more points per game. Our QBs will be better in their second year  and if Griffin can reach his full potential we can be a real threat to almost any team. 

 

In short.... I BELIEVE!   Hail!

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Seems to me it's Scot's job to bring the players in, and it's Jay's job to game plan around their strengths and weaknesses. I've never coached a day of football in my life, but trying to force a percentage of snaps either way because of your scheme preference is just asking to fail at a higher rate.

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So as Gruden began to catch some flack for getting away from running the ball, I noticed we began to commit to running on first down. ..........................

(Edited for space, not quality)

 

Great post. I hope that Gruden can get through this year without self-destructing, and then hopefully reap the benefits of McClu's input next year and beyond. If he can't, he's history.

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I think you have no idea how good of a coach Gruden is. And that's not meant as an insult. I don't think any of us know.

 

The FACT is that this team has sucked for a LONG time. I've been saying forever that it's the talent and I feel justified in my position. How many coaches have we been through? Every year its the same thing from fans, complaining about play calling because that's all they know from Madden. But the best play still sucks when players don't execute. I believe we took a giant leap forward (still with a long way to go) with this draft. I expect the top 4 or 5 picks to either start or contribute heavily.

 

No coach can do anything by himself. He cant preach competition when the owner demands the star player play. Gruden was the first coach i've seen stand up to a star players BS and call him out on it and I give him mountains of credit for that. Griffin needed someone to get tough on him. If he is ever to be the player he can be, he needs to stop believing he has arrived and work at his craft like it was his last chance in the NFL. He needs to stop talking and start doing. I believe he can do it but I don't believe he would have set his mind to it without the wakeup call Gruden gave him.  (if he cant... NEXT!.... because team comes before individual players no matter what their name or how high they were drafted)

 

I'm calling it now.... This team is going to make HUGE steps forward and at the very least give us a shot at the playoffs. The power running game with Sheriff, Jones, and the new coach will help keep drives from stalling. Our defense wont go from worst to first but more beef up front and an improved secondary should prevent a few more points per game. Our QBs will be better in their second year  and if Griffin can reach his full potential we can be a real threat to almost any team. 

 

In short.... I BELIEVE!   Hail!

Someone has been absorbing a ton of Kool Aid.

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The general approach of the WCO, is ball control with a mix of short, timed passes and runs. Most WCO teams pass quite a bit more than they run. It isn't "airing it out", or "throwing the ball all over the field", its really passing in the form of an extended hand-off to keep moving the chains.

 

This different than the Air Coryell approach of using runs and short passes to setup big plays. Gibbs and Turner pounded the ball until the D bunched-up, and then went deep.

 

Since Gruden is a WCO guy, I wouldn't expect the balance to change much. I just think we will see some of the zone runs replaced by more leads, pulls, traps, and dives.

 

The most important thing, is to make sure Griffin has the footwork, read-keys, and timing down for every concept. No more bobble feet and arm throws...he MUST get the ball out on-time for the WCO to work.

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It's okay to chug a little kool-aid during the offseason, Alexa. A little sugar in your diet won't kill you. ;)

 

Pertaining to this OP...

 

I think it's funny how pretty much everyone and their mother acknowledges the issues with our Oline, at QB, pass-catching RB, TEs, WRs and RBs blocking, etc... 

 

And how we're all excited that Scot is seemingly addressing those issues. And how we all pretty much agree that one position of strength we had last year was at WR, yet, the geniuses here say things like "Gruden said he'd adapt to the personnel and he clearly didn't".

 

I mean, really? What friggin personnel was there for him to adapt more to? If the one strength of our offense was WR, you could say he actually adapted to that well. Our Oline was decent at zone-blocking, but that's it. No other strengths. He called mainly zone-runs and that was never something he really did in the past. And that's with Desean Jackson on the outside sucking at it.

 

I mean, I don't know... maybe take Desean off the field more? I'd say that'd be idiotic and a clear tell. Overall, I don't see this "lack of adapting" others do. But, then again, I'm not the type to alleviate Robert from every issue he clearly has (or, at least, attempt to downplay them) like those who do and, almost exclusively, are the ones with that criticism of Gruden "not adapting". And then they ignore the fact that the starting QB who took the majority of reps the entire offseason and was pretty much their sole focus got hurt early and was out for half the season. Yeah, that's not going to cause fits normally. :P    

 

Now, could he have done better? Could he have coached the guys we did have better in terms of the fundamentals? I think so, but I don't know. No one really does. One thing's for sure, we've made a ton of moves this offseason with the coaches and players indicating there was a failure there at numerous levels.  

 

The team has stunk it up for a long time before him, but you get the sense that some of you really believe that he came along and ruined everything, or made them worse. Then the revisionism begins like he has no redeeming quality and his past success was just luck.

 

It's the narrative we've seen with so many who have been vilified here and it gets annoying. All this with essentially a first year HC coming on to a team that just went 3-13 the past year. Without a legit GM. Taking over a team built exclusively to run an offense only Shanahan and Kubiac run in the NFL right now.

 

And with the same fan base who kills Snyder over being impatient, lol. Amazing, really.        

 

Gruden learned offense under his brother. Now, he clearly has his own twist on it, but to act like he's some stranger to a run-heavy attack is ridiculous. Jon's style of WCO was exactly that. Run-heavy and PA dependent. Dude even hated lining up in shotgun for God's sake. Do the research.

 

Scot's philosophy arguably meshes more with Gruden's if you consider his past with his brother and not just exclusively look at his offense with the Bengals. Clearly, they both want the same things from their Oline. I certainly don't see "Gruden adapting to Scot" as something to really be concerned about. We'll find out soon enough, though.

 

I just think it's amazing how little patience is being shown by Skins fans with this man when we have only one year of coming into a crap environment to assess him with... and it makes me a little crazy inside because those who show the MOST IMPATIENCE with him are almost ALWAYS the same ones who are extremely patient with Robert, who we have quite an amount on at this point. Not only that, but they are also almost exclusively the same ones who were trashing the Shanahan's for putting Robert in the pistol more and praising the Gruden hire because "he'll actually play to his skill set as a pocket passer". 

 

And before anyone gets all flustered from that comment, I don't think there's anything wrong with being patient and hoping our guys succeed (I'm really rooting for Robert this year myself, would be the best thing for the organization if he succeeds)... but it's so obviously hypocritical to me and I'm surprised it's this prevalent.   

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I know we weren't tops in rushing, but middle of the pack. People just act lke we passed every down. Alf got his carries.

Look at Alfs numbers. He was tops in the league for 2 seasons in a RB themed O, last year, he got his caries and still barely got 1,000. We sorely lacked a 3rd down back and quick passing game last season. The parts just weren't there. 

Hopefully Jamison and Jones can add that element. I don't know if it was Helu and Roberts doing that poor of a job, the QB, the HC or the Oline or even a combination or all of them, but we are clearly getting personnel more suited to do what JG did in Cincy, instead of Shanny here.

 

I think our O this year will be fairly similar to what Seattle does. I also think we have some better pieces. Same with San Fran. We clearly have better WRs/TEs. I also think our D will be similar. 

 

We also seem to be building to handle the 4rth Q better.

 

Middle of the pack would mean we were ranked 16th, not 21st.  So yeah we did run less than the typical team.  But there are teams who threw more and ran less than us.  I think the argument that some of us have is simply that we should use the run more as the offensive crunch versus relying more on the pass or go closer to 50-50, we throw about 35 times a game so we are going about 10 more pass plays to run plays a game.     Looks like Scott-Jay are conscious of the issue  so now its just a matter of seeing how it plays out.  And yes for Jay it would be a departure if this team is more run dependent or balanced but looks like that is how its headed and hopefully so.

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