Why Gruden got no honeymoon--

[Laron Burgundy]

It's not fair to Jay.  The team was being cheap by keeping coaches and many players that probably wouldn't get a job elsewhere.  So Dan playing his best role as the Scrooge stuck Jay with too many people who were part of the problem. 

 

DG:  AJ Smith knows more about football than you and I do by a mile.  He says there's no franchise QB on this team and I agree.  Robert has so many fundamental flaws that it would take the ghost of Bill Walsh to fix his game.  Your blind love for #10 has really clouded your judgment. 

 

This is delusional.  Jay is interconnected with the coaches we kept.  We ousted the ones who were Shanahan's guys.  The coaches we kept have NOTHING to do with Dan.  Gruden has worked with these guys before and he wanted to work with them here.  Hell, Gruden even talked about extending Haslett.  How anyone can think Gruden didn't have a hand in picking his assistant coaches is beyond me.  Especially if Jay was supposedly a hot name in the head coach market.

[Burgold]

DG:  AJ Smith knows more about football than you and I do by a mile.  He says there's no franchise QB on this team and I agree.  Robert has so many fundamental flaws that it would take the ghost of Bill Walsh to fix his game.  Your blind love for #10 has really clouded your judgment. 

Interesting, that you pick Walsh. After all, many thought that Steve Young was a bust and a useless bum his first few years in the league before Walsh got to him.  RGIII has had much more success in his first three years then Steve by a long, long shot.

[nemocystem]

I think he was open to more scrutiny & deprived of a proper honeymoon period afforded to most new HC's because of the (assumed) nature of the hire. While many of us eventually stepped away from the ledge enough to let him tie his own rope, we were always skeptical because of the strong ties to Allen, & how the supposed "ALL ENCOMPASSING TEH ÜBER HC SEARCH THAT WE STRETCHED OUT & FAUX-INTERVIEWED APPLICANTS FOR KNOWING ALL ALONG THAT WE WOULD HIRE GRUDEN" search went.

So...at least for my part...he had a lot to prove to step out from under the Snyder/Allen ultra-fail umbrella & he wasn't going to get any leeway unless we saw improvement from week to week.

[pjfootballer]

The reason? In 2012, much of this same cast won 7 games in a row. A lot of that was due to a brilliant one read scheme that no longer works....

I see this said a lot about the read option. Everyone keeps saying the NFL figured it out or it no longer works. Well, for one, we just don't run it anymore. Two, Seattle and San Francisco still run it successfully now. Griffins knee forced us to shut it down last year, but in a few of the games (particularly at the beginning of the Jacksonville game) I saw us run it pretty well.

[The Wicked Wop]

I really doubt that's true.

 

After all, Shanny lasted four years and no one could deny his firing was deserved. Gibbs left on his own accord.  So, the rumored quick trigger finger is a thing of the past.  Now that said, it's not the most attractive team, but given that there are only 32 of these jobs available on Earth... I bet there were a lot of egos that wanted the gig.  Money, fame, power, possibility are great drivers. 

 

Agreed, people say stuff like no coaches want to be here and no proof of showing it.

 

This season went south so fast that I think honeymoon was out of the question.  Especially when you say one thing and the reality or what you do is the opposite.

 

I do very much hopes he succeeds and learns from this season but things like QB development, lack of a running game especially when RG3 is not in there worries me....... note to Gruden add some staff and learn to be a better head coach, not HC/OC/QB coach.  Your making it harder on yourself.

[Voice_of_Reason]

Interesting, that you pick Walsh. After all, many thought that Steve Young was a bust and a useless bum his first few years in the league before Walsh got to him. RGIII has had much more success in his first three years then Steve by a long, long shot.

To be fair, it was Walsh and a young OC named Mike Shanahan who "fixed" Young.

I'll say this forever: Griffin had the PERFECT coaches for him in place, from a football perspective, when he was drafted.

And because between Mike,Kyke and Robert, they couldn't be truthful with each other, the relationship disintegrated.

[nemocystem]

And because between Mike,Kyke and Robert, they couldn't be truthful with each other, the relationship disintegrated.

I'm assuming you mean Kyle? Haha...king of Freaudian slips...hahahahaha!

[The Wicked Wop]

DG:  AJ Smith knows more about football than you and I do by a mile.  He says there's no franchise QB on this team and I agree.  Robert has so many fundamental flaws that it would take the ghost of Bill Walsh to fix his game.  Your blind love for #10 has really clouded your judgment. 

 

I keep seeing this and keep wondering where is this abundance of franchise QBs that we are ignoring. This is not a RB or WR position, it is 10 times harder to fix then say...... and sometimes it only gets fixed by blind luck.

[Skinsinparadise]

The only strong argument for Jay coming back is 1 year isn't enough to judge a HC.  But I'm with you.  Jay appears over his head.  There's nothing you can point to that says he's a good HC.

 

That being said, the Skins FO is not setup to support a 1st time HC.  Jay needs a strong GM who will get him the players he needs and help shape the roster.  Jay's ****ed with Allen.   

 

Am with you there.  Am even more concerned with Bruce than I am with Jay.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

I'm assuming you mean Kyle? Haha...king of Freaudian slips...hahahahaha!

Damn auto-correct on iPhone....

[DC9]

I am not picking on this post, just using it as an example.   If all we can hang our hat on is:  he's inherited a mess, things were bad when he got here, Bruce and Danny or RG3 stink, and Jay is so honest -- depending on whose posting -- its just IMO nothing to hang your hat on.  

 

Really I have not seen a really good post about why Jay specifically is a good coach.  Saying he has excuses for looking bad -- is almost depressing to me.   I'd love to get jazzed about something that Jay specifically does well.  Something to look forward to about Jay that has nothing to do with his supposed obstacles. 

 

How do we know how good he is?  No one has been good here since George Allen save for Joe Gibbs... twice.

I see this said a lot about the read option. Everyone keeps saying the NFL figured it out or it no longer works. Well, for one, we just don't run it anymore. Two, Seattle and San Francisco still run it successfully now. Griffins knee forced us to shut it down last year, but in a few of the games (particularly at the beginning of the Jacksonville game) I saw us run it pretty well.

 

It's not the read option that I'm talking about.  It's Griffin having to make more than one read on a play.  This is exhausted in several other threads though. 

 

The common threads?  The owner... most of the scouting department, many front office figures, just about every other vice president in the organization, the medical staff and a lot of the conditioning staff.  That's where your problem is.

[DC9]

Oh HELL NO lil' bro'! 

 

This is like that time you tricked me into getting double ficking algebra detention on the pretence Mrs Henderson was into me when it turned out not only did she hate boys;  you wanted Jenny Henderson alone in her house! You know how much I hated math! ****ER!

 

I'ma onto you! You only want me to get the gig and make an ass of myself again so you can snag freebie life time tickets. 

 

Not this time buster!  .

 

Hail. 

 

"You know I like my girls a little bit older." - the Outfield 

 

And most people hopped the bandwagon on the honeymoon period when Griffin was benched or called out in the media.

 

I mean, as I've said before - if you could just "coach up" anyone why trade multiple picks for anyone?

If you can blame the rest of the personnel on the organizations inability to pick out players for RG3 sucking, why do people fail to see RG3 was picked by the organization?

 

On the other hand, Gruden hasn't outcoached anyone yet imo, so I can't hang my hat on him, either. 

 

Two wrongs don't make anything right.  Best case scenario is they both work with each other.

[Mad Mike]

I keep saying this and no one seems to get it. It's not coaching that is killing us, it's lack of talent.

 

From the loss of Sean Taylor to the waste of roster and cap space that was Albert Haynesworth and the ensuing fiasco of the cap penalties, to the picks we traded to get RG3, we are STILL digging out of a hole.

 

And before someone starts talking about the talent we do have, yes we have some good talent in some places but we still have huge holes to fill both in star talent and depth. 

[Burgold]

I keep saying this and no one seems to get it. It's not coaching that is killing us, it's lack of talent.

 

From the loss of Sean Taylor to the waste of roster and cap space that was Albert Haynesworth and the ensuing fiasco of the cap penalties, to the picks we traded to get RG3, we are STILL digging out of a hole.

 

And before someone starts talking about the talent we do have, yes we have some good talent in some places but we still have huge holes to fill both in star talent and depth. 

Think about our biggest signings this year... corner back Harper, defensive tackle Hatcher, and wide receiver Roberts, and Lavaou... you can make a case for 0 for 4 or at least 1 for four in terms of impact.  Desean Jackson, who was not in the plans or part of the strategy worked out, and you can praise the nimbleness of the front office for making it work, but their strategy esp. for the day one signings really fared poorly.

 

I'd say

 

Lavaou D

Roberts D+/C-

Hatcher C

Harper F

 

Jackson B+

[mw11385]

Gruden got no honeymoon, and he did not deserve one, for reasons previously mentioned. He's not the problem. It's Snyder.

I have a really hard time believing for one second that Snyder will ever change his ways. He did not become a millionaire by accident, and he seems to still think that he can apply the same methods in this arena and achieve success.

Not to go all pop-psych or anything, but it seems he is determined to use what worked for him in the past, like stacking yes-men like cord-wood, and putting his thumbprint on all parts of the organization through the application of personal influence.

Gibbs was the only one he respected enough to go hands-off, but Redskins icons like him obviously don't grow on trees.

I suspect it will take rampant apathy (not that I am encouraging this here) that eventually hurts him in the wallet to get him to even consider changing his approach.

Meanwhile, I will continue to root for them despite my suspicion of inherent futility, and will do my best to avoid getting suspended from this message board again...

[RandyHolt]

I think he got no honeymoon because it was year 5 of a rebuild. The OL was not reinvented. QBs retained. Haslett and others, retained or even promoted. Gruden was brought in here to sort out the QB position, only, he took it upon himself to do so alone. Well, along with a former Tusker and TEs coach. 

 

I think this is where he failed. He shunned a QB coach, and didn't realize how much of his time was going to be committed to being the coach of an entire team. He could have added a QB coach, but stubbornly has chosen to stay the course, as all 3 QBs have had struggles. Major struggles. Nothing has changed. No heads have rolled, no consultants added, etc. 

 

Dan is a win now guy that sucked it up and let Mike rebuild. I think it was worth a shot to not start rebuilding, but it was imperative that RG3 be used to his strengths to go along with the win now move. Week 1 it was clear this would not happen. He would be a game manager. Game 2 showed us a completely different look, as Gruden changed his approach. RG3 got injured, and the wheels came off the wagon. 

 

I am not sure I trust Gruden to commence a proper rebuild. He walked into a rebuild well into place, and has no resume at rebuilding an NFL team. 

[NoCalMike]

It could be because the team seemed to regress during the season. 

 

I think part of it is that too many are still holding onto hope that the 2012 team was more than a perfect situation.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I keep saying this and no one seems to get it. It's not coaching that is killing us, it's lack of talent.

 

From the loss of Sean Taylor to the waste of roster and cap space that was Albert Haynesworth and the ensuing fiasco of the cap penalties, to the picks we traded to get RG3, we are STILL digging out of a hole.

 

And before someone starts talking about the talent we do have, yes we have some good talent in some places but we still have huge holes to fill both in star talent and depth. 

 

No question we have a dirth of talent right across the roster. Starting and depth. Any regular sufferer of this shambles wold testify to that if they're honest. 

 

But when most EVERY player has not improved and, in MANY cases, regressed from even the historical ineptitude of last year; that's not a talent issue.That's a COACHING issue. We should, at the bare minimum, of seen progress within the group. Instead, we've gone BACKWARDS under him. A HCs job, REGARDLESS of the personnel he's given, is to coach them up and put them in positions to win. Neither of that has happened under this clown. 

 

To excuse piss poor, inept coaching in most ALL facets down to a lack of talent is getting beyond nauseating. 

 

Hail. 

[JSSkinz]

BLa Bla Bla, its always the coach, Jay couldn't develop an Rg3 who isn't smart enough to develop himself.  If a coach gives you all the data, the reps, the film time, at some point doesn't the QB have to develop himself.

 

 

I don't blame Jay for failing at this dumpster fire of an organization, those with agenda's will blame him and that's fine.

 

The reality is if you want advice on a winning franchise, good coaches, and front office, don't come to ES because nobody has seen it in 20 years.

[Burgold]

I don't know. I sometimes think Snyder did get to be a milionaire (billionaire?) by accident.  It seems almost all of his other ventures have failed and even the Redskins which used to be the number 2 most profitable sports entity in the world is looking shabbier.

[Skinsinparadise]

As I said earlier on this thread, the pro-Jay posts to me are in their own way the most hard hitting to Jay.  

 

The best Jay argument seems to be its really Bruce, Dan, or RG3's fault.  Maybe.  But good luck, Jay putting that on his resume when he goes for his next job.  Hopefully he can distinguish himself on something positive that he brings to the table. 

 

My main beef with him is I don't see what he has brought to the table.    I can go with the idea of give him time.  That's the one and only thing I hang my hat on in year #1.

[hitmandm]

Jay Gruden is an idiot of epic proportions. Harbaugh's gruff attitude got old in SF and Jay Gruden is no Harbaugh. Gruden will fail because he sucks. It is just a matter of time.

[Birdlives]

There are no more honeymoons. You can only try to reboot so many times. Every time you do, the honeymoon phase will shrink. I don't suspect Snyder has much more equity left. That's a good thing. The chickens will come home to roost soon enough.

[TSO]

I am not picking on this post, just using it as an example.   If all we can hang our hat on is:  he's inherited a mess, things were bad when he got here, Bruce and Danny or RG3 stink, and Jay is so honest -- depending on whose posting -- its just IMO nothing to hang your hat on.  

 

Really I have not seen a really good post about why Jay specifically is a good coach.  Saying he has excuses for looking bad -- is almost depressing to me.   I'd love to get jazzed about something that Jay specifically does well.  Something to look forward to about Jay that has nothing to do with his supposed obstacles. 

 

How about the fact that, similar to pretty much every coach we've hired except Zorn, he's had success every where he's been including running one phase of an NFL team while showing improvement every year?

 

I was never entirely satisfied with the Guden hire due to the shadow it cast on the legitimacy of the coaching search, but at least he had a resumè that one could view as acceptable. Plus he was one of the younger candidates and you'd like to think if you hit on him you could have a long term solution. 

 

So I mean, my God, when are we going to get tired with this line of thinking? At one point do we say it's upper management and the ineffective scouting department? Do we really still have the naivety to believe that there's actually a coach out there that can do such an incredibly magnificent job (and, yes, that's what it'll take) to give us any form of sustained success?

 

Even Gibbs couldn't do it. 

 

Aren't we like the worst team in the league when it comes to top draft resources spent on the trenches? How can we judge, with the finality some here are judging with, a first year HC knowing that, really? We don't want to do it with our QBs, specifically Robert, but yet we want to with everyone else? I could see doing so with a total failure like Haz who has been bad every where he's been... But shouldn't the failure of a guy, who has largely been successful his entire career elsewhere, with this organization (and knowing that all the different coaches with similar or even better pedigrees have failed as well, while the FO and scouting department have remained largely unchanged) be a clear indictment on the FO and not him?

 

Like how many times do we need to change the same variable in our experiment, see it end the same way every time, yet think changing that same variable will make a difference instead of moving to another? 

 

I mean, I just don't see how we can legitimately judge anyone here under this FO; coaches or players. We can find faults with them, certainly, but who doesn't have them? Sound organizations find guys who are multi-dimensional and fit with others around them in the proper way, which minimizes or renders insignificant their weaknesses and highlights their strengths. Nothing fits right here; coaches, assistant coaches and players all have such massively differing strengths and weaknesses and are entirely too one-dimensional that any attempt to "make it work" or "solve the puzzle" causes too many other issues. And instead of saying, "okay, this is who we've got and who we want to build with for the long term, let's just do everything that fits their strengths and surround them with that", we fire or cut them and bring in the next hot commodity who may have little to no ability to mesh with everything else we currently have. 

 

This is is why we consistently see people leave this organization and have plenty success elsewhere. It's maddening. I dont know if Gruden is or isn't the right guy. I am, however, convinced at this point that there isn't a "right guy". The only change that will yield significant results are up top with the FO and scouting department. 

As I said earlier on this thread, the pro-Jay posts to me are in their own way the most hard hitting to Jay.  

 

The best Jay argument seems to be its really Bruce, Dan, or RG3's fault.  Maybe.  But good luck, Jay putting that on his resume when he goes for his next job.  Hopefully he can distinguish himself on something positive that he brings to the table. 

 

My main beef with him is I don't see what he has brought to the table.    I can go with the idea of give him time.  That's the one and only thing I hang my hat on in year #1.

 

Dude, all he has to point to is everything he was before the Redskins, lol. I think the entire NFL at this point understands how terrible we are. He's still young, he'll be fine. 

[nemocystem]

Agreed...the FO calamity is far & away our biggest issue, & for all intents & purposes would be our most participated thread....except there's already several threads discussing these particulars & this one ain't about that.

At some point, many of us just want to get to discussing the things that are most likely to change & why those things are the way they are. Essentially...we have gotten back to accepting that we have absolutely no control over that particular aspect of our team, & we are simply trying to debate why Gruden getting a short leash this soon into his tenure may or may not be justified.

Is the FO a malignant cancer? Most definitely. Are they the sole reasons why Jay's team has regressed so much in his first year? Or why he is incapable of dealing with highly volatile matters in-house? Or retaining Haslett...which, as i understand it, was his choice?

& Allen hiring him after a phony search, with the historical ties to each other of note, with the reasons we were provided as to why he was chosen...these are all factors that further illustrate why Gruden should absolutely not be given a honeymoon period as other coaches can be afforded because as you described so eloquently...our FO blows chunks & has no bearing on how to make sound football decisions...the hiring of Jay Gruden included.