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Is Gruden an NFL Coach?


lovemaskins

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I'm not the usual thread starter but I'm frustrated today.  I'm frustrated with the coach and I'm starting to question his ability to lead my beloved Redskins.

 

Reasons:

 

Every week I see the same issues.  Whether Robert, Cousins, or McCoy, there seems to be no ingenuity in the offense.  Help your QB, help your team, THAT'S YOUR JOB!!!!!!!

 

When we do run the ball, which isn't enough, it's the same dumb pitch play that consistently gets stopped.  Single back pitch left, right, middle.  Why not use our great fullback and run some Iso plays, ala Mike Sellars. More zone handoffs, which will lead to more play action.  Robert is better at this, I'm sure.

 

Do we have screen or draw plays in our playbook.  I'd like to see them called more frequently than 3rd and 15.  How about something that hasn't been seen before.  I see some new wrinkle in other plays books often, and commentators commenting how great a play design it was.   

 

How about helping your struggling young QB and offensive line by calling some plays that benefit them.  More rollouts, move the pocket, help get Robert in a groove/rhythm early.  How about chipping with the running back to give Robert more than 1.83 seconds, dudes getting killed on three step drops.

 

A double reverse flea flicker in the 1st quarter?  ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!?!  Never saw Gibbs or Parcells run a flea flicker that early in the game.  Your suppose to set it up over the coarse of the game so it actually works.

 

Do we even know what the Shotgun formation is?  How about going four wide Morris in the backfield to block, slip out, run the screen, QB draw, etc....

 

Where are the double moves with Jackson.  The spin double move was nice like 3 weeks ago.  It worked too.  Zone read does actually work in the NFL.  Can we pepper it in more than once every 15 plays, as I'm sure it'll help keep the defense more honest   

 

PENALTIES.... Every week, I see the same damn dumbass penalties.  False start, block in the back, ILLEGAL PROCEDURE!!!, ARGHH.   THAT'S ON THE DAMN COACH.  You guys see the running back from the patriots ride the bench yesterday for over sleeping.  That's accountability.

 

Too much transparency with the media.  I'd rather he be a little more like Belichick, didn't he learn anything from being around him this past summer in training camp.  Just keep in house business in house.  Contrary to popular belief fans don't need to know all the juicy details.

 

 

 

 

Sorry guys, I'm just starting to feel like Jim Zorn II.  He looks lost standing on the sidelines, just mad and angry and lost.  I get the feeling we'll be excited about another coach as the carousel continues in about two years.  Just saying.  HTTR.. 

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But that exactly the point, it's his job "coach em up."  If you know the line is struggling then you gotta change something.  Max Protect!  2 man routes, simplify, hell one read and tell him to run, cause what we're doing sure as hell ain't working.

 

What's the saying "doing the same stuff expecting different results is insanity" or something like that.  And yeah, Robert's play is poor, but still we can't just keep banging our head against the wall. 

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My opinion is that Jay took on too much responsibility.  1st time head coach/Offensive playercaller/QB coach.  Its tough to make gameday adjustments when your concerned with 46 players, coaches, the qbs performance, and managing the game.   Based upon the short week against the giants, and the 2 weeks before the bucs, it seems we're not exactly prepared for some games either.

 

The onus falls on the front office to set him up with a quality support system, but alas Haslett and Mcvay are far from world class thus far.  Its a shame because Zorn did the same and eventually everybody saw how the team was NOT getting better, but rather stagnant.

 

This franchise just cannot get out of its own way

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It is way too early to make that decision. We have to give this guy the control of his team that most successful coaches have (coaching decisions, not personnel) and give him a few years to build it his way. If we keep pulling the plug on every HC we get two years into their tenure we are WORSE than the Raiders...

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I read your whole post and honestly, there is a legitimate rebuttal to everything you wrote all kind of contradicting your criticisms of Gruden.  Would take way to long to address each one. Here are few.

 

double moves? Are you serious, that's like asking a crawling infant to run a marathon. 

 

It's easy to sit a no name running back when you have had the same all world QB for 15 years.  Gruden sat Amerson, I thought that was a great.  He sat down Kirk quick ... he even took out Hatcher if im not mistaken. 

 

Skins are 17th in rushing attempts, not great, not bad.  They are 9th in yards, that's pretty good. 

 

Was the flea flicker a good play, probably not. It's one play, and you are acting like its a real big deal. 

 

4 wide with Morris in the backfield? Do you want Jay to get an attempted murder charge? That's what will happen. Robert will get killed. 

 

We try to run screens all the time, did yesterday on 3rd and long, have done it a bunch this year. Draws, not sure, but I've seen a few. 

 

I'll ask you this ... do you go back and rewatch games? If not, i would not get to worked up until you do, because you are really not seeing the entire picture. 

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My opinion is that Jay took on too much responsibility.  1st time head coach/Offensive playercaller/QB coach.  Its tough to make gameday adjustments when your concerned with 46 players, coaches, the qbs performance, and managing the game.   Based upon the short week against the giants, and the 2 weeks before the bucs, it seems we're not exactly prepared for some games either.

 

The onus falls on the front office to set him up with a quality support system, but alas Haslett and Mcvay are far from world class thus far.  Its a shame because Zorn did the same and eventually everybody saw how the team was NOT getting better, but rather stagnant.

 

This franchise just cannot get out of its own way

That's something I mentioned the other day.  His supporting cast is terrible.  Where are his veteran coaches, McVay is what 30, Haslett's a train wreck, Raheem Morris???, who else?  C'mon man.  As a leader, you should never be the smartest guy in the room. 

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How much more can you simplfy the offense man.  It's pretty vanilla.  They ran the ball effectively yesterday -- shoulda made it easier to gets some 10-15 yd+ passes down the field.  Yes, the Oline is struggling in pass protection (has all year), but outside of Moses getting jobbed a few times yesterday Robert just doesn't see down field well and holds on to the ball too long.  Indecisvie -- seems bad at processing pre-snap information.  Max protect with 2 man routes??  Hmmm,...so, let's give RG3 2-3 more seconds to hold on to the ball longer while the defense has 2 recievers to cover and he still gets sacked?  I don't know man,...thinking that might not work either.

 

Yes, the amount of penalties needs decrease.  That's partly on coaching, but the player needs to be held accountable too.

 

I like his candor and honesty, and he seems to be pushing against the obvious string pulling from above.  Love that.  But he's a rookie HC so with that will be growing pains.  He's not my primary concern, not by a long shot.

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So far, I'm still a fan. I know it's ruffling feathers, but I like how he's trying to shake up the status quo in the organization. The marketing culture here has led to entitled "stars" and dysfunction. Gruden is trying to turn this into a football organization instead. You can't make an omelette...

 

If he's not successful in a few years, then I guess we might have to move on. But I wouldn't consider that until he's had a chance to assist in changing the culture in Ashburn. 

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So far, I'm still a fan. I know it's ruffling feathers, but I like how he's trying to shake up the status quo in the organization. The marketing culture here has led to entitled "stars" and dysfunction. Gruden is trying to turn this into a football organization instead. You can't make an omelette...

 

If he's not successful in a few years, then I guess we might have to move on. But I wouldn't consider that until he's had a chance to assist in changing the culture in Ashburn. 

 

I agree... Gruden is currently using what was dealt to him.  You can see his subtle changes in discipline and accountability.  With Amerson being out yesterday, and the not so subtle critique of Griffin in the news conference.  I think over time he will build something that resembles the team we want.  

 

Unfortunately we all want it right now...and rightfully so as we have been waiting for years.  Rock <Gruden> Hard Place....

 

As for yesterdays game I am not sure how we would expect anything else? It has been an ongoing theme : Poor QB Play, OL is poor, WR's are upset.

 

Oddly the patchwork defense did "ok".... 

 

If anything we have to take baby steps at this point.... but i see subtle changes from Gruden that may change the culture here in the long term....

 

my 2 cents...

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So far, I'm still a fan. I know it's ruffling feathers, but I like how he's trying to shake up the status quo in the organization. The marketing culture here has led to entitled "stars" and dysfunction. Gruden is trying to turn this into a football organization instead. You can't make an omelette...

 

If he's not successful in a few years, then I guess we might have to move on. But I wouldn't consider that until he's had a chance to assist in changing the culture in Ashburn. 

 I thought Mike did the same with Haynesworth?

 

Guys, being a professional organization is great and all, but you need great scouting, drafting, and development.  Gruden is responsible for the development and thus far, we have not seen it.  You can blame it on the lack of help given to him by the front office though.  I just wonder what a "few years" entails? Only asking because I kinda fear how far a Bruce Allen/Gruden regime might set us back then we'll be doing the same dance in 2016, 2017.  Remember how bare the Zorn era left the team?

 

I expect big changes this offseason to the roster and coaching staff, this status quo cannot continue.  This roster is essentially 3-17 the last 20 games, unacceptable.  

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Ummmm Gibbs used trick plays a lot. Flea flicker, fake punts, fake field goals, HB toss with portis

 

After two 3 and outs, in the first quarter??? HB tosses were used after Portis ran all over defenses all day, not first quarter.  You have to build the trick into the play.  Playaction works the same way. You actually have to run the ball to get linebackers to bite on the "action" to then pass easily. 

 

I read your whole post and honestly, there is a legitimate rebuttal to everything you wrote all kind of contradicting your criticisms of Gruden.  Would take way to long to address each one. Here are few.

 

double moves? Are you serious, that's like asking a crawling infant to run a marathon. 

 

It's easy to sit a no name running back when you have had the same all world QB for 15 years.  Gruden sat Amerson, I thought that was a great.  He sat down Kirk quick ... he even took out Hatcher if im not mistaken. 

 

Skins are 17th in rushing attempts, not great, not bad.  They are 9th in yards, that's pretty good. 

 

Was the flea flicker a good play, probably not. It's one play, and you are acting like its a real big deal. 

 

4 wide with Morris in the backfield? Do you want Jay to get an attempted murder charge? That's what will happen. Robert will get killed. 

 

We try to run screens all the time, did yesterday on 3rd and long, have done it a bunch this year. Draws, not sure, but I've seen a few. 

 

I'll ask you this ... do you go back and rewatch games? If not, i would not get to worked up until you do, because you are really not seeing the entire picture. 

 

I hear you, but I can rebut you as well.  Double moves need to be part of our gameplan.  Robert was the QB who completed the pass to a wide open Jackson on the double move, so yes he can throw it.

 

Accountability is holding people accountable, period.  More please, we're 3-8.

 

17th in rushing attempts as bad as our pass protection looks is stupid.  We should be top 10 at least.  Especially the way Morris has been running. 

 

The flea flicker is a big deal, because it put a struggling QB in a 3rd and long, which he didn't convert, and helps to CONTINUE TO STRUGGLE.  How about we run the ball there and get 3 or four yards and give Robert a more manageable 3rd down.  3rd and 3, 3rd and 4.  I could name a dozens of playcalls better there.

 

Yes 4 wide, shotgun formation, that what he did in college.  It's what he knows!!!!!!  It allows you to put guys in motion, gives him more room to use his athletic ability instead of dropping back getting smoked.

 

Like I said in the original post, can we run a screen on 1st down, and draw on 2nd and 6, instead of 3rd and forever.  You know what real coaches do?

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I hear you, but I can rebut you as well.  Double moves need to be part of our gameplan. 

 

i think what you are hoping to see (double moves, 4 WR formations) are just not doable, and when they are attempted you get the results from  yesterday, sack, after sack, after sack. 

 

i think Gruden honestly wants to call this stuff, I think he wants to be dynamic, and to be honest and I can't say this definitively, I think he tries, I do. But Robert is just not getting the ball out on time, for one reason or another. 

 

I'm not ready to put blame on Gruden, not yet. He is not perfect, by no means. I think there is just a major disconnect between him and the QB - hell, maybe that's Grudens fault?? who knows. 

 

I do agree, penalties are on the coach, he needs to get them better prepared there ... we are leading the league with 94. 

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Thing is, we were seeing improvement and some pretty good improvement too.  Then the bye happened and somehow it all fell apart.  The special teams are much better than last year and at the beginning of the year. The running game looks like it is improving. RGIII has regressed terribly.  He actually played pretty well against the Vikings, but was miserable against Tampa Bay and miserable again yesterday.  Something's wrong in his head.  He lost his mojo. That's a player who really lacks confidence in himself and his team.

 

But things were progressing well until the bye.  After the bye, everything disintegrated and I don't know why.  Maybe the team after the loss that shouldn't have been at Minnesota decided the season was over, but the play has dropped considerably. So has the attitude in here. The spirit is about as suicidal as imaginable.  It is beyond whiny and pathetic.  ES sounds like it has less backbone than the French for goshsakes.

 

Everyone... coaches, back office, players, and fans need to stop with the "woe is me" we're doomed ****ing crap and just start building again.  Yes, this season is lost, but it needn't be the hopeless train wreck we are witnessing.

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I think Jay is good at getting WRs open (or maybe Jackson and Garcon are just that talented) but he struggles with other aspects of being a head coach. 

 

He finally won a challenge, and it seemed like Raheem Morris forced him to throw the flag. He also never has the offense hurry up to the line after a close call went the Redskins way. 

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Thing is, we were seeing improvement and some pretty good improvement too.  Then the bye happened and somehow it all fell apart.  The special teams are much better than last year and at the beginning of the year. The running game looks like it is improving. RGIII has regressed terribly.  He actually played pretty well against the Vikings, but was miserable against Tampa Bay and miserable again yesterday.  Something's wrong in his head.  He lost his mojo. That's a player who really lacks confidence in himself and his team.

 

But things were progressing well until the bye.  After the bye, everything disintegrated and I don't know why.  Maybe the team after the loss that shouldn't have been at Minnesota decided the season was over, but the play has dropped considerably. So has the attitude in here. The spirit is about as suicidal as imaginable.  It is beyond whiny and pathetic.  ES sounds like it has less backbone than the French for goshsakes.

 

Everyone... coaches, back office, players, and fans need to stop with the "woe is me" we're doomed ****ing crap and just start building again.  Yes, this season is lost, but it needn't be the hopeless train wreck we are witnessing.

 4 winning seasons in 23 years will do that to you.  We're keen to see when a ship is sinking and we're barely treading water right now.  

 

Rebuilding is ok, just not whens its played out and used as an excuse every 3-4 years.  First we rebuild after Gibbs, then after Zorn, now after Shanny left a mess.  Judging by the methodology this past offseason (i.e. older players, retreads), this front office doesnt seem like they're exactly in it for the long haul. 

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Gruden's offense with a QB who can execute it, take for example either of two journeyman QBs ... Kirk Cousins and Colt McCoy ... is an effective offensive machine.  Its the QB breakdowns that are killing it ... Cousins with his brain-dead interceptions and Griffin with his complete funk.  There's nothing wrong with Gruden's approach to offense.

 

Potential issues ... giving Griffin some of his own medicine in a post game presser, decision to keep Haz and riding broken QBs too long are all problematic and its concievable that there is some method to the madness.  At best all we have is conjecture.  My view ...

 

I don't believe Gruden's first, second or third message to Griffin was given at that press conference.  Its too basic and he does have experience as a boss/leader/head coach.  I beleive Gruden has been telling Griffin that same basic message for sometime now and after hearing Griffin open mouth and insert foot after the Vikings game ... he felt he had to deliver a slightly more memorable message.  Since then we hear that Gruden has the front office's blessing ... so I'm more convinced it was a considered tactic as opposed to a loose canon hot head.  Is it a good coaching technique ... I'd lean towards no but if all other tactics have been exhausted and haven't worked ... maybe not such a bad idea.  Serves a couple of purposes ... message to Griffin shut-up and play better, message to team I'm the only one who's allowed to criticize you, message to fans ... prepare for the end of the Griffin era.

 

I'm not convinced .. and I've never been that Gruden really had a choice re Haz.  If he did I wish he would have sought out someone better ... but I also think Haz's Defense did enough to win at least 4 additional games this season ... that would make 3 - 8 look a lot like 7 - 4 (Texans, Vikings, Bucs, Niners).

 

Broken QBs ... I think he expected Cousins to win the job and wanted him to.  If you remove Cousins' interceptions ... he made the offense sing.  The INTs were awful so hope died.  The Griffin thing is probably a last gasp with a focus on trying to make good on the promise to put Griffin in positions where he can succeed and establishing a basis for the QB decision in 2015.  Since so much is invested in Griffin he's going to get every opportunity and then some to be the QB.  Also, if Grififn isn't the QB the future is challenging unless we go with McCoy or Cousins as the starter, passing on a big draft or FA move to get a QB and allowing the draft and FA moves to address the other holes in the roster ...

 

so ... I don't think Gruden is a bad coach.  I think he like a lot of first year NFL coaches walked into a bad roster and a bad dynamic.  Typically ... these things take a year to clear out.  Good recent example ... Lovie Smith.  3-8 happens in the NFL to better teams than the one Gruden inherited.

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Thing is, we were seeing improvement and some pretty good improvement too.  Then the bye happened and somehow it all fell apart.  The special teams are much better than last year and at the beginning of the year. The running game looks like it is improving. RGIII has regressed terribly.  He actually played pretty well against the Vikings, but was miserable against Tampa Bay and miserable again yesterday.  Something's wrong in his head.  He lost his mojo. That's a player who really lacks confidence in himself and his team.

 

 

 

I think Jay is good at getting WRs open (or maybe Jackson and Garcon are just that talented) but he struggles with other aspects of being a head coach. 

 

He finally won a challenge, and it seemed like Raheem Morris forced him to throw the flag. He also never has the offense hurry up to the line after a close call went the Redskins way. 

 

But posts like these are precisely my point.  Yeah, I don't know what is wrong with Robert, but he needs help from a gameplan to attempt to get it back.  But standing in the pocket getting smashed in less than 2 secs certainly isn't helping him.  I played ball, getting hit like that will make you play differently.  Call it what you want, fear, courage, insanity, but when you get up or wake up and everything's green your head swivels. 

 

I'm just asking for the coach to control what's in he power to control.  Him calling a chip to give Robert 3 secs instead 2 is in his power.

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After two 3 and outs, in the first quarter??? HB tosses were used after Portis ran all over defenses all day, not first quarter.  You have to build the trick into the play.  Playaction works the same way. You actually have to run the ball to get linebackers to bite on the "action" to then pass easily. 

 

 

I hear you, but I can rebut you as well.  Double moves need to be part of our gameplan.  Robert was the QB who completed the pass to a wide open Jackson on the double move, so yes he can throw it.

 

Accountability is holding people accountable, period.  More please, we're 3-8.

 

17th in rushing attempts as bad as our pass protection looks is stupid.  We should be top 10 at least.  Especially the way Morris has been running. 

 

The flea flicker is a big deal, because it put a struggling QB in a 3rd and long, which he didn't convert, and helps to CONTINUE TO STRUGGLE.  How about we run the ball there and get 3 or four yards and give Robert a more manageable 3rd down.  3rd and 3, 3rd and 4.  I could name a dozens of playcalls better there.

 

Yes 4 wide, shotgun formation, that what he did in college.  It's what he knows!!!!!!  It allows you to put guys in motion, gives him more room to use his athletic ability instead of dropping back getting smoked.

 

Like I said in the original post, can we run a screen on 1st down, and draw on 2nd and 6, instead of 3rd and forever.  You know what real coaches do?

 

Well,...you seem to have all the answers.  So,...why don't you just give Jay a call let him know what he's doing wrong.  Since he's not a real NFL coach and all.

 

I mean, seems pretty easy.  Just do this right?

 

- Double moves

- Shotgun with 4 wides

- Run draws on 2nd down and screens on 1st downs

- Max protect with 2-man routes

- Have the RBs chip more

- No flea flickers

 

Let us all know that goes.

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I think Jay is good at getting WRs open (or maybe Jackson and Garcon are just that talented) but he struggles with other aspects of being a head coach. 

 

He finally won a challenge, and it seemed like Raheem Morris forced him to throw the flag. He also never has the offense hurry up to the line after a close call went the Redskins way. 

the guy has proven he knows offense, all of it ... before he got to Washington.  The challenge thing is about the people watching the replays and telling him to challenge or not and the hurry up after a close call ... has that ever kept the refs from stopping the play?  Last night Eli tried that and the refs stopped it. 

 

Move along ... nothing to see here

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How much more simple can the offense get?  Ask Greg Roman in SF or Darrell Bevell in Seattle.  Those offenses are about as simple as they can get in the NFL, the difference is they have the players in the trenches to make it work.

 

Colin Kaepernick was throwing 70% of his passes to the same 1st read route which was that 7 yard out route towards the left sideline. He hit two big passes all day, the first TD pass to a wide open receiver and the pass to Crabtree at the end of the half.   Wilson in Seattle, most of his passes are to guys in the flat who get a lot of YAC.  Both those guys are still dropping back and if their first read isn't open, they begin moving around and scrambling to buy time, but I don't hear anyone claiming their growth is being stunted. They also stand behind good protection.  Notice that whenever we got solid pressure on Kap he didn't perform so well, so that is why the 49ers went out and drafted/signed a great O-line.  Same with Seattle.

 

I don't think the question is whether Gruden is head coach material, but I do think there is a legitimate question about whether he was the right guy for THIS head coaching job.

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That's something I mentioned the other day.  His supporting cast is terrible.  Where are his veteran coaches, McVay is what 30, Haslett's a train wreck, Raheem Morris???, who else?  C'mon man.  As a leader, you should never be the smartest guy in the room.

There was probably way too much holdover in the front office/coaching staff.

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