CHALK TALK - Power Running Scheme vs Zone Running Scheme: The Ballad of Why 46 Is REALLY Struggling

[ABQCOWBOY]

 

You guess it's you? No, there's no guessing necessary: It IS you.

 

You said it's the play calling for why Morris is struggling. He didn't struggle last year. So where's the confusion? Obviously if you're blaming play calling and he's struggling this year, you're referring to this year.

 

Did you mean "scheme"? It's a schematic issue if you're saying the shift from running game being based entirely on a zone system, to a system where it's mostly zone but partially gap, is the culprit. 

 

 

No.  I said it's the personnel around him and the play calling.   You are trying to force me into saying something, for whatever reason, that would fit your agenda.   It's fine, if that's what you want to believe, I'm good with it.

 

Fact of the matter is that you aren't as good in the run game as you were in 2012.   You can't force the same kinds of situations as you could then.   It's really that simple IMO.   However, I don't think it's because Morris can't fit the scheme.   Get him better run blocking and another threat so that teams can't focus on stopping him and he will have good numbers IMO.   It's not more complicated then that IMO.

[KDawg]

No.  I said it's the personnel around him and the play calling.   You are trying to force me into saying something, for whatever reason, that would fit your agenda.   It's fine, if that's what you want to believe, I'm good with it.

 

Fact of the matter is that you aren't as good in the run game as you were in 2012.   You can't force the same kinds of situations as you could then.   It's really that simple IMO.   However, I don't think it's because Morris can't fit the scheme.   Get him better run blocking and another threat so that teams can't focus on stopping him and he will have good numbers IMO.   It's not more complicated then that IMO.

 

I... have no idea what you're saying. It sounds to me like you're talking about personnel (agree there) and scheme. You say you're not talking about scheme or play calling. Despite noting the 'Skins are running a different offense, you aren't talking about scheme, either. So what the heck are you talking about?

 

I'm going off of what YOU SAID. Not any agenda. I don't even recognize your name as a poster on this Redskins forum.

[ABQCOWBOY]

I would say this.   If Washington does decide that the no longer have a use for Morris, I would hope that the Cowboys seriously consider him.   I like Morris and I would be happy to see him in Dallas.  He would fit our scheme IMO and with Murray in a contract year, should the Cowboys decide that they can't afford him, I would be happy to see them try and sign a guy like Morris. 

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

So, here's a good question. What will our next totally new scheme be that requires us to overhaul the roster? I'm nominating Tampa 2 defense.

 

Pretty pitiful how we have no direction or organizational identity. It's a real mystery why we fail when we never stick with a plan and make wholesale changes every couple of years, trying to jam players into roles they don't fit with a crowbar.

 

Offensive philosophies since Snyder has been here...

 

Norv Turner

Marty Ball

Fun n Gun

Gibbs Power O

Al Saunders 600 page playbook

Zorn WC offense

Shanny ZBS

Read option

Gruden power running

 

 

Gimme a break...

[StephenDavis]

So, here's a good question. What will our next totally new scheme be that requires us to overhaul the roster? I'm nominating Tampa 2 defense.

 

Pretty pitiful how we have no direction or organizational identity. It's a real mystery why we fail when we never stick with a plan and make wholesale changes every couple of years, trying to jam players into roles they don't fit with a crowbar.

 

Offensive philosophies since Snyder has been here...

 

Norv Turner

Marty Ball

Fun n Gun

Gibbs Power O

Al Saunders 600 page playbook

Zorn WC offense

Shanny ZBS

Read option

Gruden power running

 

 

Gimme a break...

Yeah at some point a coach has to change his philosophy in order to be successful short term. I guess that's asking for too much.

[MartinC]

So, here's a good question. What will our next totally new scheme be that requires us to overhaul the roster? I'm nominating Tampa 2 defense.

 

Pretty pitiful how we have no direction or organizational identity. It's a real mystery why we fail when we never stick with a plan and make wholesale changes every couple of years, trying to jam players into roles they don't fit with a crowbar.

 

Offensive philosophies since Snyder has been here...

 

Norv Turner

Marty Ball

Fun n Gun

Gibbs Power O

Al Saunders 600 page playbook

Zorn WC offense

Shanny ZBS

Read option

Gruden power running

 

 

Gimme a break...

 

We have not switched running schemes to a power O. We have added some power concepts but most of our run game is still based on ZBS. Its not like we are running counter trey and 50 gut a dozen times a game each.

 

I think people are getting things out of proportion here. The struggles in the run game are much more personnel related than scheme related IMO.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Or we could have leadership at the top who sets the direction of the organization and then only brings in coaches who fit the mold.

[ABQCOWBOY]

 

I... have no idea what you're saying. It sounds to me like you're talking about personnel (agree there) and scheme. You say you're not talking about scheme or play calling. Despite noting the 'Skins are running a different offense, you aren't talking about scheme, either. So what the heck are you talking about?

 

I'm going off of what YOU SAID. Not any agenda. I don't even recognize your name as a poster on this Redskins forum.

 

 

Do you have to be recognized as a poster on this board to post?  

 

I don't think it's the scheme as much as it is the talent is what I'm saying.   The play calling is obviously different.  It can't help but be different.   Every Pro team has hot reads in both the running game and the passing game.   QBs have the ability to audible.   What a defense does to you, IMO, is not as important as if you have personnel that can execute your scheme.   Any scheme can work because obviously, teams have won championships in the NFL using either scheme.   It's important that your personnel fit your scheme.  I think we can agree on that.   When I watch the Redskins, I don't see your personnel winning battles up front, in the running game the same way they did in 2012.   In 2012, you weren't really a great passing team IMO but, you had such a good ground game that you didn't have to be to win games. 

 

That, IMO, is a personnel thing.   It's not a scheme thing.  Specifically, where Morris is concerned.   If the argument were one in which the team wanted to move on from Morris because of Cap concerns, injury issues, age concerns, I could understand the necessity to move on.   However, I don't think the problem is Morris.   I think Morris is one of the really good players Washington has on Offense.  

[KDawg]

Do you have to be recognized as a poster on this board to post? 

 

 

 

*sigh* Are you purposely obtuse? You said I had an agenda. I said I had no idea who you are. In other words, how the heck can I have an agenda?

 

 

 

I don't think it's the scheme as much as it is the talent is what I'm saying.

 

I agree with talent being an issue on the offensive line.

 

 

That, IMO, is a personnel thing.   It's not a scheme thing.  Specifically, where Morris is concerned.   If the argument were one in which the team wanted to move on from Morris because of Cap concerns, injury issues, age concerns, I could understand the necessity to move on.   However, I don't think the problem is Morris.   I think Morris is one of the really good players Washington has on Offense.

 

So, if it's personnel, why did you mention play calling? This is where you keep losing me. 

[ABQCOWBOY]

So, if it's personnel, why did you mention play calling? This is where you keep losing me. 

 

 

Because you can't do the same things on offense as you could before.   You can't even run your entire offense because of your personnel.   If the question is if Morris is the problem, then the answer is no.  Look at the Offense you are actually running now.   Look at the play calling now in comparison to 2012.   You can't run the same offense, you can't call the same plays because you don't have an RG3 who can force the defense to account for him.  Of course it's the play calling and personnel.  

 

Who's being obtuse now?

[KDawg]

Because you can't do the same things on offense as you could before.   You can't even run your entire offense because of your personnel.   If the question is if Morris is the problem, then the answer is no.  Look at the Offense you are actually running now.   Look at the play calling now in comparison to 2012.   You can't run the same offense, you can't call the same plays because you don't have an RG3 who can force the defense to account for him.  Of course it's the play calling and personnel.  

 

Who's being obtuse now?

 

That's schematic. You're talking about scheme. You say you're not. But you are.

 

Otherwise, I'm done with this back and forth. Enjoy your day.

[ABQCOWBOY]

That's schematic. You're talking about scheme. You say you're not. But you are.

 

Otherwise, I'm done with this back and forth. Enjoy your day.

 

 

Have it your way.  Regardless, you can't call the same plays you did when Morris was running all over people because you don't have the same talent up front and you don't have the same weapons around him that forced Defenses to honor the rest of your Offense.  

 

You can say anything you want about me or what I'm saying but in the end, the truth is the truth.  You can't do the same things you did in 2012 because you don't have the talent around him.  

 

As I said before, if you are ready to move on from Morris, that's good news for me.   I think Morris is a pretty good NFL back and I hope we have a chance to pick him up.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Lache Seastrunk would run for 1,500 yards behind your OL. So would about 100 other people.

[Riggo-toni]

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that we have sacrificed blocking ability on the ends from guys like Morgan, Hankerson, and Paulsen for receiving and deep threat talents of DJax, Niles Paul, and Roberts. Furthermore, Lavao can't get a push forward for a power running scheme, and doesn't have the athleticism for a ZBS. Defenses DL are crushing the interior, and the OLBs are just lining up a bit farther out to cover sweeps.

What about running a spread offense from either the pistol or the shotgun and usimg Morris more on draw plays?

[SkinsFTW]

The funny thing is, was anybody ever really all that impressed with the Bengal power running game under Gruden?  I mean, it was mediocre, at best.   We were getting 5 yards a clip running zone.   Made sense for him to not abandon it.  But I think he's trying to serve two masters though, and both are suffering because of it.  

 

It's just like every other new coach. Marty, Spurrier, Gibbs, Zorn, Shanny, now Gruden. The last couple times it's been "lets find the one thing that works perfectly on this team and change it" then lets blow the salary cap on 30-35 year old players even though we've changed so much scheme that fits nobody on the roster we shouldn't expect to win soon, but rebuilding is out of the question with a Snyder owned team. Maybe next year we can sign Suh and go 4-12 like after we signed Haynesworth.

[TheLongshot]

It's just like every other new coach. Marty, Spurrier, Gibbs, Zorn, Shanny, now Gruden. The last couple times it's been "lets find the one thing that works perfectly on this team and change it" then lets blow the salary cap on 30-35 year old players even though we've changed so much scheme that fits nobody on the roster we shouldn't expect to win soon, but rebuilding is out of the question with a Snyder owned team. Maybe next year we can sign Suh and go 4-12 like after we signed Haynesworth.

 

With every coaching change there is going to be changes with what works and what doesn't work.  While you may be able to avoid it if you promote from within, there is always going to be a transition.  I'm not sure how you define "rebuilding" but things can't change for a team overnight.  You have players under contract who might not fit the new coach but still have to use.  You still need to find players who can play at all positions.  You can't simply say that you will let young players sink or swim if they aren't ready, because likely you will harm their development.

 

The hope with any transition is that you can continue to do well what you were doing well with before and bring in enough guys to keep your head above water while you fill the holes. The team tried doing this, but with the OL, it was probably hard to find the guys who could fill the holes.  They hoped Polumbus would be able to hold up one more year so that they could develop someone.  They hoped that Lavuao could act as a stopgap until someone was ready to replace him.  It hasn't really worked out so far.

[darrelgreenie]

 I think Morris shares part of the blame when it comes to the weak running game. BUT I don't think he is the major reason for the lack of running success. I think the running game is harsedung and everyone's had their hands in it.

 

But I think the main reason for the lack of running success is focus or lack thereof from Jay.

Jay Gruden is a pass focused OC. Consequently I don't think he gives the running as much attention in the planning nor in practice.

And imho it shows on game day.

Some of the mistakes that are happening are execution mistakes that I speculate are from lack of practice time.

For lack of better word I think the running game is out of sync.

 

things i noticed that could affect the running game (in no particular order):

 

o getting away from the running game, started in the Houston game when they were actually running the ball well and even though Jay acknowledged that he got away from the run he has done little to change his playcalling (except for the Titans game)

 

o TE and WR blocking-Jay's pass focus leads him to play Niles and Reed a lot and neither player sets the edge as well as Paulsen.

There were some plays in almost every game where Niles or Reed fail at the POA. Really a quibble but oh, yeah DeSean don't block.

 

o Variety in the running game/playcalling- Although we are running the same scheme the playcalling is different. A staple running play from the previous OC was the toss/pitch and we rarely (if ever) call it. We don't call as much outside zone, the previous running game was built on outside zone. Before the Titans game, we almost never called back to back runs, a huge tendency that i'm sure defenses picked up on. Maybe due to injury but not seeing a lot of DY on the field. Not as many runs called form Pistol as last year. Not enough bootswap or read-option called to get defense worried about contain.

 

o Morris- I'm not sure why but Alfred appears to be hesitant and not running with the same power and confidence. I speculate that Alfred is concerned about Jay going away from the run unless every run is a 5+ yard gain and is therefore trying to do too much. That coupled with his fumbling and suddenly Alfred isn't running like Alfred.

 

Basically I think our running game can be fixed fairly easily.

I don't think the problems our major enough to prevent us from really becoming a good running team again.

 

But, can Jay see his way past the passing game to commit to the running game?

[DC9]

 I think Morris shares part of the blame when it comes to the weak running game. BUT I don't think he is the major reason for the lack of running success. I think the running game is harsedung and everyone's had their hands in it.

 

But I think the main reason for the lack of running success is focus or lack thereof from Jay.

Jay Gruden is a pass focused OC. Consequently I don't think he gives the running as much attention in the planning nor in practice.

And imho it shows on game day.

Some of the mistakes that are happening are execution mistakes that I speculate are from lack of practice time.

For lack of better word I think the running game is out of sync.

 

Definitely agree that overall the pass blocking has improved.  Which means we are spending more and more time on that in practice and less on run blocking. 

[DC9]

Thought I'd give this a bump now that we seem to be having some Alfred Morris vs Matt Jones discussions.

 

Look at where Alfred Morris has been successful this pre-season... his best runs have come running outside zone (stretch).

 

Matt Jones has run well in the counter-gap runs he's had.

 

Further, I think it's fair to say that Morris has struggled running counter-gap.  I know some of these struggles can be attributed to the offensive line working to gel and some of the competition has been pretty tough.  But I've seen enough to call it a pattern.

 

Any thoughts or observations?

[RiggosMohawk]

Thought I'd give this a bump now that we seem to be having some Alfred Morris vs Matt Jones discussions.

 

...

 

Any thoughts or observations?

 

I'd say my eyes completely agree with yours. It's amazing how well AM still runs those stretch plays regardless of who is under center, and which OL have been replaced in front of him.

 

Toss back Q to you though. The PA bootleg is obviously tailor made to run off the outside stretch, but can it be used effectively from something like the power iso play you put in the OP?

[DC9]

I'd say my eyes completely agree with yours. It's amazing how well AM still runs those stretch plays regardless of who is under center, and which OL have been replaced in front of him.

 

Toss back Q to you though. The PA bootleg is obviously tailor made to run off the outside stretch, but can it be used effectively from something like the power iso play you put in the OP?

 

If you notice a lot of the PAs in Gruden's offense are straight drop backs to play off the counter gap action.

 

In fact, the PA pass that Griffin had his last play in was that type of play.  Not sure if that was inside zone or counter-gap, I'd have to look again.  But that's why it's so important to establish that kind of run play in this offense.  It will suck those LBs (and hopefully a safety) in and will open up those intermediate and deep routes.

 

There is still a place for the boot in this offense, though, as you noticed.  But the route tree and the footwork is different on those PA where the QB doesn't roll out.

 

EDIT:  I take it back - it was the one at 38 seconds here (looks like ISO blocking - man on man):

 

[RiggosMohawk]

If you notice a lot of the PAs in Gruden's offense are straight drop backs to play off the counter gap action.

 

More Qs then (damn it feels good to talk football and not drama BS).

 

Would iso blocking keep the pistol formation mostly on the back burner then?

And does this type of blocking scheme limit your running plays out of shotgun alignments?

[RandyHolt]

I think defenses aggressively play the run with Morris in the game. He breaks a lot of tackles, but they key on him big time.  If we ended up passing, great, they'd go crush RG3.

 

We always hear that the PAP sucks in the defenders, making passing easier. 

 

What about the opposite... LBs and Safeties sitting back thinking we are going to pass because we have a hands back in a lot more often..... or is there no such a benefit?  It would seem like there is, but it's never discussed.

 

It seems like the OS is half power / half zone right now, and thus do neither well.

[RiggosMohawk]

It seems like the OS is half power / half zone right now, and thus do neither well.

 

It seems like the zone part comes so easily to us though, that it would be almost criminal to abandon it just for purity.

 

If I'm remembering past convos on it correctly, it lets TW's athleticism really be exploited. From all I've heard BS can really move in the run game too. Couple that with a back who runs it extremely well, and it sounds like a dangerous weapon to have at our disposal.

 

You bring up a great point about the personnel tipping our intentions - even more reason why it's great to hear 46 working on his receiving skills all offseason.

[DC9]

More Qs then (damn it feels good to talk football and not drama BS).

 

Would iso blocking keep the pistol formation mostly on the back burner then?

And does this type of blocking scheme limit your running plays out of shotgun alignments?

 

You can run any just about any play out of the pistol that you can run from under center.  The timing of the play is normally a franction or so different.

 

We don't exclusively run power stuff, but it's Callahan's baby and a lot of Jay's PA is set up off of that kind of run action (another reason why Callahan's presence will be felt and appreciated... Foerster is one of the best ZBS coaches in the business, but you can already see improvements from guys like Moses and Long... even Luavoa... under Callahan). 

 

Out of the shot gun I've seen us run a lot of inside zone and even a PA sweep that was outside zone action (a lot of folks called this a zone read play for Kirk where he short hopped Roberts - it was not... it was a designed PA).  But I wouldn't say it limits us at all.

We always hear that the PAP sucks in the defenders, making passing easier. 

 

What about the opposite... LBs and Safeties sitting back thinking we are going to pass because we have a hands back in a lot more often..... or is there no such a benefit?  It would seem like there is, but it's never discussed.

 

It seems like the OS is half power / half zone right now, and thus do neither well.

 

That's a fair observation, but I don't think it's true.  Good o-lines need to be able to do both.  The Ravens and Cowboys do both well.