Dan Snyder may have changed, but his head coach hiring formula hasn't. Will the results be the same?

[justice98]

I think now we're giving Bruce more credit than he deserves for the state of the team.  His footprint on personnel before this year was dubious being Shanahan was in charge and Bruce mainly worked the numbers to get him his people.

 

Frankly, on paper coming into the season, I can't say i didn't think the personnel wasn't improved under Bruce's command.  I can't think of a unit on the team that got worse.  WRs are better, OL is better (marginally so, but better is still better), DL is better, LBs are better, secondary was supposed to be better but circumstances have gotten them (Merriweather, Tanard Jackson, Philip Thomas's injuries, DHall's achilles).  Even the special teams personnel was better on paper.

 

I think to evaluate Bruce, is more about A) on his head coach, and on the personnel moves going forward in a timeframe longer than 4 games.  it's too early in his current role to kick him to the curb, IMO.  The QB situation drives it all either way, and that's not on him.  

[DC9]

Your Fassel comment is ridiculous.

 

And, yes, right or wrong the team began hiring coordinators without a head coach because those guys were being taken off the market. Wait until after the Super Bowl (a month after Gibbs walked) to put a staff together was problematic.

 

It had everything to do with Gibbs.

 

Oh snap...

 

The Fassel comment is 100% correct.  In his interview he said he would approach Jim Zorn about the OC duties and Greg Blache about DC duties.

 

Have it your way.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8068dfba/article/spagnuolo-withdraws-redskins-plot-next-move-in-coaching-search

 

 

Fassel, a former Giants coach, and Meeks, the Indianapolis Colts defensive coordinator, voiced approval of Snyder's decision to hire Jim Zorn to run the offense and promote Greg Blache to take charge of the defense. Snyder has met several times with Fassel and Meeks.

Mariucci, a former coach of the San Francisco 49ers and Detroit Lions, had one interview last week in Arizona, putting him behind Fassel and Meeks on the list of favorites.

 

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

All this crying and bemoaning about Danny and Allen and you guys want is a winning football team. 

 

Our team stays healthy and we will have that.

[aqq]

All this crying and bemoaning about Danny and Allen and you guys want is a winning football team. 

 

Our team stays healthy and we will have that.

Nice add in. Utterly useless analysis. Thank you

[Thinking Skins]

I don't think Bruce needs to be fired.  I am just saying the franchise isn't competent, our talent evaluation sucks.  Whether that means we need better scouts, I don't know.  What I do know is what we are doing isn't working.  Even the types of players we draft are head scratchers.  Any honest fan, if told what our current record is, what last years record was, when we last won a division game, even with winning the division 1 year would have called this regime a failure.  The Shanny move was a failure.  There isn't much positive you can give to the changes.  Keeping Haslett and expecting better?  Not having many drafted players starting on your defense?  The list goes on and on.

I do think you don't have an understanding of what Bruce's role was in Oakland.  And if you look at his reviews in Tampa, they are terrible.  Not sure how you can be happy with the current state of affairs, the drama coming out of Redskins park, the lack of preparation, the age of our players, the inability to draft and retain young talent.  We are a mess, plain and simple.

Like I said, I just think we have different opinions of the state of the franchise. You want to talk about records, but you ignore the fact that our franchise qb went down with a knee injury that has changed the way he has to play the QB position. I mean, we're on a message board where people are declaring the season over after 4 games.

Green Bay lost to Seattle 36-16, was their season over?

The Giants lost to Detroit 35-14, was their season over?

New Orleans lost to Dallas 38-14, is their season over?

Its just one game, and just like we blew out Jacksonville in one game, we got blown out in one game. Gruden's job is to rally the troops, get them prepared for Seattle, then Arizona, then Tennessee then Dallas and so on and so forth. At the end of the season, we'll add up the wins and losses and see where we stand.

But I'm not here to convince you. If you want to call it a failure, then that's your right as a fan. I choose to look at the team and see the positives, but if you see the negatives and think they outweigh the positives, then that's you.

[Peregrine]

What do you notice about that pattern?  Synder is a reactionary decision maker.  When something goes badly, rather than making a wise thoughtful decision, he IMMEDIATELY tries to hire someone who is the opposite of the previous head coach.  Thats why he goes from old proven to brand new and back again.  When you make decisions like that they will always be poor decisions.  Synder is all flash and bad split second reactionary decisions, the worst way to run an NFL team.

[Burgold]

What do you notice about that pattern?  Synder is a reactionary decision maker.  When something goes badly, rather than making a wise thoughtful decision, he IMMEDIATELY tries to hire someone who is the opposite of the previous head coach.  Thats why he goes from old proven to brand new and back again.  When you make decisions like that they will always be poor decisions.  Synder is all flash and bad split second reactionary decisions, the worst way to run an NFL team.

That's not really so... Norv, Marty Spurrier, Gibbs, Zorn, Shanny... only Zorn was not an old football vet and he really settled for him because they mishandled the situation so poorly having had the entire fanbase and football world turn on him for his desire to ink Fassel..

 

Gruden is really his first intentional attempt at a rookie coach where the rook was the first choice.

I do think that Snyder needs to really beef up the scouting department. Poach scouts from Baltimore, Philly, and other teams that seem to keep it going.  We need additional eyes.  After all, if our top scouts were Cerrato scouts... are you at all comfortable with having Vinny's eyes?

[Thinking Skins]

I believe your basically saying because Vinny Cerrato was probably the most incompetent GM in football your happy with Bruce Allen because at least he can manage the salary cap.

 

Just because Dan Synder has set the bar so low doesn't make Bruce Allen's body of work acceptable. If you go back and read my original post in this thread you can see my thoughts on the hiring of Jay Gruden. I hope he works out as HC but he was hired for all the wrong reasons and that's on Allen.

I don't think we can say "why he was hired". Yeah, there are a lot of "other" things that connect him to a job here in DC, but Gruden had a resume that had him on head coaching short lists all over the league.

But as far as your comments on Vinny, its not as much about the low bar, its more about what (in my opinion) is bringing this team back to being a legitimate franchise. Whether you think Allen is a personnel guy or not (and I'll agree that he's not), the fact that the final say for personnel is not all lying in one person (ala Shanny), and its not in some hypothetical conversation between Gibbs/Vinny/and Danny. Allen said that he has the final say on personnel, and so we can grade him on that aspect of the team. That's a big step forward.

I think Skins fans are too used to the 80s, and quick turnarounds. I look at what happened in SF, or in Seattle, or in Arizona, this is a process that usually goes through a few cycles of wash/rinse/repeat before finally getting a pairing that gets it right. People look at organizations like the Ravens and Steelers and watch how they replace one coach with another and just keep on winning, but that's not the norm.

It's hard to build a winning team. I want to go through the growing pains of building a winning team. I remember what it was like having Norv go 3-13 then 6-10, then going into his third year with Gus as our QB and really thinking that we could make the playoffs, and then starting 7-1, only to fall to 9-7. I remember the next going 8-7-1, then going 6-10 and thinking that Norv should be fired there.

Unfortunately that's the last time we've had a chance to grow with a coach. Cause just like with Danny's free agency strategy, he's been thinking we're just "one type of coach away" and makes the quick coaching change and gets the same results. To his credit, Spurrier quit and he would have never fired Gibbs. But Marty and Zorn are totally on him. He gave Shanny 4 years so I don't really fault him for that firing. The only problem I have with all these hirings (except Zorn) is that they were big names who got big contracts and had no real incentive to get through the hard times.

I think our scouting could be improved, i think our coaching could be improved, i think our players could be improved, but I don't want to try to make a quick fix in any of those areas because there's a shiny new toy on the market.

[AdmiralWaugh]

 

 

The Fassel comment is 100% correct.  In his interview he said he would approach Jim Zorn about the OC duties and Greg Blache about DC duties.

 

 

 

As our link points out, Fassel (and others) did say he was OK with the coordinator hires. That's a far cry from interviewing Fassel then hiring those he purportedly said he would want on his staff.

[chipwhich]

Like I said, I just think we have different opinions of the state of the franchise. You want to talk about records, but you ignore the fact that our franchise qb went down with a knee injury that has changed the way he has to play the QB position. I mean, we're on a message board where people are declaring the season over after 4 games.

Green Bay lost to Seattle 36-16, was their season over?

The Giants lost to Detroit 35-14, was their season over?

New Orleans lost to Dallas 38-14, is their season over?

Its just one game, and just like we blew out Jacksonville in one game, we got blown out in one game. Gruden's job is to rally the troops, get them prepared for Seattle, then Arizona, then Tennessee then Dallas and so on and so forth. At the end of the season, we'll add up the wins and losses and see where we stand.

But I'm not here to convince you. If you want to call it a failure, then that's your right as a fan. I choose to look at the team and see the positives, but if you see the negatives and think they outweigh the positives, then that's you.

 

How many years of losing records before you will agree the franchise is in shambles.

 

Of Green Bay, The Giants, and New Orleans how many of them haven't won a Super Bowl recently?  Your definition of the state of a franchise seems odd.  We aren't even 12 months removed from a coach being run out of town in what might have been the most embarrassing time in our football history.

[Burgold]

As our link points out, Fassel (and others) did say he was OK with the coordinator hires. That's a far cry from interviewing Fassel then hiring those he purportedly said he would want on his staff.

As near as we can tell and no one will ever know unless someone leaks the memoranda, Fassel was the top of the list followed by Spagnola and a few others.  Basically, it sounded like Fassel was a done deal and then something got tripped up. They started reaching out to others who refused to be head coach to a staff they did not pick.  Then they offered Zorn the chance and he jumped at it and did really well for half a season with the team Gibbs set up, but once they figured out Zorn's plan A he couldn't come up with a plan B adn that was the end of him. Enter Shanny.

[Thinking Skins]

How many years of losing records before you will agree the franchise is in shambles.

 

Of Green Bay, The Giants, and New Orleans how many of them haven't won a Super Bowl recently?  Your definition of the state of a franchise seems odd.  We aren't even 12 months removed from a coach being run out of town in what might have been the most embarrassing time in our football history.

Exactly. We removed a coach and I'd now like to go through a growing process with a new coach. I don't expect the new coach to be 13-3 his first year. I want him to struggle, learn how to motivate guys, learn who HIS guys are, learn who he can count on in the 4th quarter, learn how to attack different players, different coaches, etc. Like Danny always says on his show, you've got to be really bad before you can be really good. I don't care if we lose the rest of the season (I'm not saying we try to do that), as long as our coach and our team are growing. Its not about the wins and losses for me right now, its about turning this franchise around.

This is the first year record of some coaches across the league:

Pete Carroll: 6-10

Tom Coughlin: 4-12

Jeff Fisher: 1-5, then 7-9

John Fox: 7-9

Andy Reid: 5-11

Ron Rivera: 6-10

Lovie Smith: 5-11

I'm not saying that Gruden will go through struggles like this, but we shouldn't be surprised if he does. Its part of the growth of a head coach.

[DC9]

As our link points out, Fassel (and others) did say he was OK with the coordinator hires. That's a far cry from interviewing Fassel then hiring those he purportedly said he would want on his staff.

 

You must've misread the last line in the first paragraph... or you don't understand what it is saying/implying.  But it's all good, I know I'm right

[chipwhich]

Exactly. We removed a coach and I'd now like to go through a growing process with a new coach. I don't expect the new coach to be 13-3 his first year. I want him to struggle, learn how to motivate guys, learn who HIS guys are, learn who he can count on in the 4th quarter, learn how to attack different players, different coaches, etc. Like Danny always says on his show, you've got to be really bad before you can be really good. I don't care if we lose the rest of the season (I'm not saying we try to do that), as long as our coach and our team are growing. Its not about the wins and losses for me right now, its about turning this franchise around.

 

Well now you are moving the goal posts with regards to the discussion.  I never said I have a problem with Gruden.  Our franchise issues have NOTHING to do with changing head coaches.  I don't mind taking our lumps this year as a new coach learns.

 

What I do mind is a defense in it's fifth year together that got marched on like year one when we switched defenses.  The Giants offense was considered a disaster going into this game with a pathetic offensive line, but we couldn't sniff the QB.  I do mind bringing back Haslett yet again when it's obvious he is a horrible coordinator.  I do mind the churn of draft picks we have had.  I do mind the types of players we have been drafting.  Hey, this isn't about 4 games into a season, this is about 5 years into a program under Bruce arguably no progress.  Heck, even in Griffin's good year, we weren't that good of a team until that 7 game run.

 

What has to happen for you to realize our drafting has been poor, our roster assembly has been poor, our continued focus on Wide Receivers has been a head scratcher.  We still dick around with has been safeties.  We always worry about what free agents to add, and win now, rather than rebuilding a defensive line with home grown talent, rebuilding an offensive line with home grown talent, draft players and groom them.  We can go 3-13 with draft picks, we don't need these old free agents on the roster to do that.

[Thinking Skins]

Well now you are moving the goal posts with regards to the discussion.  I never said I have a problem with Gruden.  Our franchise issues have NOTHING to do with changing head coaches.  I don't mind taking our lumps this year as a new coach learns.

 

What I do mind is a defense in it's fifth year together that got marched on like year one when we switched defenses.  The Giants offense was considered a disaster going into this game with a pathetic offensive line, but we couldn't sniff the QB.  I do mind bringing back Haslett yet again when it's obvious he is a horrible coordinator.  I do mind the churn of draft picks we have had.  I do mind the types of players we have been drafting.  Hey, this isn't about 4 games into a season, this is about 5 years into a program under Bruce arguably no progress.  Heck, even in Griffin's good year, we weren't that good of a team until that 7 game run.

 

What has to happen for you to realize our drafting has been poor, our roster assembly has been poor, our continued focus on Wide Receivers has been a head scratcher.  We still dick around with has been safeties.  We always worry about what free agents to add, and win now, rather than rebuilding a defensive line with home grown talent, rebuilding an offensive line with home grown talent, draft players and groom them.  We can go 3-13 with draft picks, we don't need these old free agents on the roster to do that.

I haven't commented on those aspects you mention because as I stated, I see those things and say that we're headed in the right direction. People were upset at us for not addressing the OL, and we addressed it - with a player that many wanted us to get. Gruden and Has is a problem for me too. Hopefully either some of the stuff the Haslett supporters (myself included at times) says starts to come true, or he gets fired. The entire reason I'm in this thread though is because I don't think its fair to say that because Allen isn't "a football mind" that he's a bad GM. If you want to use any of the things you mention to make that claim then go right ahead and I won't criticize you. But just because one guy is trained in scouting and another is trained in business doesn't mean that the guy trained in scouting is destined to be a GM and the guy trained in business isn't. GMs are involved in both of those and I think Bruce has a resume worthy of being a GM in this league.

[chipwhich]

I haven't commented on those aspects you mention because as I stated, I see those things and say that we're headed in the right direction. People were upset at us for not addressing the OL, and we addressed it - with a player that many wanted us to get. Gruden and Has is a problem for me too. Hopefully either some of the stuff the Haslett supporters (myself included at times) says starts to come true, or he gets fired. The entire reason I'm in this thread though is because I don't think its fair to say that because Allen isn't "a football mind" that he's a bad GM. If you want to use any of the things you mention to make that claim then go right ahead and I won't criticize you. But just because one guy is trained in scouting and another is trained in business doesn't mean that the guy trained in scouting is destined to be a GM and the guy trained in business isn't. GMs are involved in both of those and I think Bruce has a resume worthy of being a GM in this league.

 

Ok, how about telling me about Bruce Allen the GM and lets review his drafts as a Redskins GM.

[Thinking Skins]

Ok, how about telling me about Bruce Allen the GM and lets review his drafts as a Redskins GM.

I don't think we have enough evidence on that one. We can talk about the 2014 draft and UDFAs, which I think would be a pretty good grade for him. I do wish we had gotten say a DL or ILB instead of the K or TE, but I don't know who was on their draft board and there's nobody that I'm seeing that was taken around those times that I'm saying "I wish he was here".

[Rodriggo]

Snyder is a little ****.

 

I always liked that he was a fan and felt that eventually it would drive him to act in the best interest of the team but it's been 15 years now and they've been mostly a laughingstock....it's not going to get better with him EVER.

 

The team is a joke and the organization is a bigger joke. Nothing it does or says engenders anything but skepticism. He's the "mojo" every positive thing about this team has to work and pray against to succeed, it's asinine. He's the dark cloud.

 

Old beer, old peanuts, old stadium, horrible turf (why they didn't go to a hybrid field when RG3 was drafted I'll never know), horrible, horrible, horrible PR, horrible ******* yellow clown ******* **** ******* pants that kill my soul every Sunday.

 

This team was a source of pride for me when I was a kid and in the course of little more than a decade it's completely evaporated. I mean, if they botch the oncoming renaming as bad as they have the current controversy it might very well be the end.

 

If they throw out the colors and don't pick a name like Hogs or Skins or something that references the history of the team, I'm done. I'm ******* done. Snyder will have literally killed the Redskins for me.

 

I always wonder what a charismatic, smart, decent guy like Leonsis could do for the Skins.

[chipwhich]

I don't think we have enough evidence on that one. We can talk about the 2014 draft and UDFAs, which I think would be a pretty good grade for him. I do wish we had gotten say a DL or ILB instead of the K or TE, but I don't know who was on their draft board and there's nobody that I'm seeing that was taken around those times that I'm saying "I wish he was here".

 

Gotcha, so you are going with Bruce Allen is only responsible for this year moving forward.

I always wonder what a charismatic, smart, decent guy like Leonsis could do for the Skins.

 

Oh please, Leonsis isn't a good owner, he is just better at selling seats.  His teams stink.

[knowledge316]

LOL 

[Thinking Skins]

Gotcha, so you are going with Bruce Allen is only responsible for this year moving forward.

That's what I'm going with. But I can understand arguments that say he's responsible for things like the McNabb trade, the Brown trade, the giving up of draft picks that we did trying to act like we were only one step away. I don't really think Allen thinks like that because generally coaches are the ones who want to do this type of "win now" type stuff. But I wasn't there so I can't really argue either side, but if you want to blame Allen then I understand. If you think that our not addressing the OL until late in the draft is on Allen, then again that's a valid criticism.

But I think the past four years is a lot more cloudy than whats going on since January. Bruce said that he has the final say, so we can easily look at this years FA and draft and say, why didn't we sign or draft a FS? That's a negative for Bruce, and I wouldn't argue with that.

[chipwhich]

But I think the past four years is a lot more cloudy than whats going on since January. Bruce said that he has the final say, so we can easily look at this years FA and draft and say, why didn't we sign or draft a FS? That's a negative for Bruce, and I wouldn't argue with that.

 

Ok, well I heard he righted the ship when he hired Shanny.  Please let me know when it's ok to judge him.  Is it next year?  the followoing year?  Because I was sold a bill of goods when he was brought on board.  5 years in and still waiting to see some fruits of his labors.

[Rodriggo]

Oh please, Leonsis isn't a good owner, he is just better at selling seats.  His teams stink.

 

Still would.

[Burgold]

 

 

I always wonder what a charismatic, smart, decent guy like Leonsis could do for the Skins.

People forget what a surly, rotten ole SOB Jack Kent Cooke was.  In fact, I'd guess that if you look at most billionaires esp. the self made ones... you'll find more rats than angels.

[AdmiralWaugh]

You must've misread the last line in the first paragraph... or you don't understand what it is saying/implying.  But it's all good, I know I'm right

 

This line, "And basically it came down to interviewing Jim Fassel and getting a list of who he wanted his staff to be and then hiring that staff," which began this discussion.

 

But you certainly know more than I.

As near as we can tell and no one will ever know unless someone leaks the memoranda, Fassel was the top of the list followed by Spagnola and a few others.  Basically, it sounded like Fassel was a done deal and then something got tripped up. They started reaching out to others who refused to be head coach to a staff they did not pick.  Then they offered Zorn the chance and he jumped at it and did really well for half a season with the team Gibbs set up, but once they figured out Zorn's plan A he couldn't come up with a plan B adn that was the end of him. Enter Shanny.

 

Well, actually Fassel was not at top of any list ... although he tried to convey that impression when he leaked word he had been contacted. No one refused to be head coach to a staff. In fact, Mora (who used the meeting to secure a new contract in Seattle), Spagnulo (who used his meeting to get his new contract) were the only ones to said, "Thanks for the meeting, but I've got a good gig."

 

Mariucci let them know he wasn't interested in leaving TV. Another had ridiculous salary demands.

 

At least half dozen others were perfectly fine with the potential position, as well as two others never identified.