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RG3 and Him Running the ball- discussion


knighthonor

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I wanted to discussion this specifically regarding RG3 as a mobile QB with elite running game.

I don't see any major discussions regarding this on the net, while the world seem to be focused on the whole "Pocket Passer"controversy .

Well to the discussion. In 2012 season RG3 made big plays with his legs, with a bad Oline that tends to be bad before the RG3 draft as well.

He was hurt that year while running near the end of the season. But one thing I notice, is that the Redskins never been good again since the RG3 injury. And the major element there that is different is the Redksins havnt had a mobile QB since the Injury.

The media has attacked RG3 for his running game, to the point that the coaching staff had to change the scheme to a more passer oriented play calling, which doesn't seem to work in washington due to the Oline's failures over the decade.

RG3's running game seem so elite that it masked the flaws in the 2012 Oline.

But now RG3 is being told not to run the ball anymore, and defenses know this, and are putting more pressure on the below avg Oline of Washington, and basically destroying any form of a Pocket.

Since RG3 isn't running anymore to make up and mask those Oline Flaws, the Offense is struggling.

They don't need to put extra cover on the recievers since defensive lines are doing enough pressure to obliterate the Oline. So perhaps the media and propaganda should switch its agenda to get RG3 to do more running instead of less.

But this is my view of this. So let discuss this. Sorry if this thread offended any Mods here, but not any discussions regarding Mobile RG3 on the Internet at the moment.

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Imo, RG3 is obviously NOT a pocket passer. Not sure if he will ever have the poise and patience to stay in a pocket that long. or to buy time IN a pocket until wr's get open. So, he may not be the answer for this offense. Right now, I believe Cousins gives this team the best overall chance to win in this type offense. Just my opinion. If RG3 can learn it and catch on, he has much more potential to be better though.

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It is a misnomer that mobile QBs are sacked or hit less.  They have always been sacked and hit more.  Thus the move to keep Griffin in the pocket as much as possible.  A 3 or 5 step drop followed by a quick throw is what keeps Peyton Manning healthy, his line need only keep their blocks for 1-2 seconds.  After that all bets are off. 

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What Hunter_R said.

 

I don't think anyone has a problem with Robert running when it's necessary.  That's not the issue.  Problem is his unwllingness to, for lack of a better way of putting it, "grow up" and quite playing like he did in HS and college.  Aside from getting better in all aspects as an NFL caliber QB, his top priority should be to protect himself (when he can) from taking hits.  It's just not necessary from him take hits like the ones he took on that play in the Browns game.  For a few more yards?  No,...just no. 

 

We all know you're tough Rob.  Now take the next steps and become a QB run an offense at a high level in the NFL reading defenses, making accurate throws from the pocket and protecting yourself and the ball when things go wrong.

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The threat of Griffin's running, can help all aspects of the game.

 

Often, teams assign a spy, usually a safety to follow Griffin...that's one defender removed from the coverage, just because Griffin might take off.

 

Also, we've seen games where teams stack the inside to shut down Morris, like the 2nd Giants game last year. That was the only game where they ran a lot of IZR (read option), and it just kept on working, so they kept on running it...even on a gimpy knee.

 

In order for this threat to produce these kinds of dividends, it must be established. That means Griffin needs to run every once in awhile to keep the threat real.

 

In the images below, you can see that the Browns are in Cover-1, with the SS moved up to either cover Reed, or spy Griffin. He is now playing no role in helping to cover Garcon or Jackson. There are only two deep routes, designed to force the FS to make a choice. Whichever way he goes, he will choose wrong because Griffin will throw behind him.

 

However, a FS in Cover-1 knows full well he is probably the read, so he plays a waiting game of chicken, and never actually turns his hips in either direction. Griffin, however, patiently keeps his eyes on the FS, and waits until Jackson is too far away for the FS to get involved, and then delivers a nice strike. Pocket passing done right.

progressions-1a.png

progressions-1c.png

There are plenty of pocket passing concepts that Griffin runs just fine, so to say he isn't a pocket passer is silly. He isn't complete, as there is a lot of stuff he does not do well, or at least not consistently, but he is fully capable of never leaving the pocket and having a great game.

 

There are times when Griffin seems to lose focus, and just does what he wants to do instead of what the D gives him. That will come with time.

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...He was hurt that year while running near the end of the season. But one thing I notice, is that the Redskins never been good again since the RG3 injury. And the major element there that is different is the Redksins havnt had a mobile QB since the Injury.

Its tough to boil down one factor as "thee" cause for a football team's success or failure.

And to my eye Griffin looked pretty much back to normal by week 4. The reasons the for not being good after Griff's rookie year run the gamut: personnel, special teams, coach/player conflict, playcalling/gameplan, QB play etc...

...The media has attacked RG3 for his running game, to the point that the coaching staff had to change the scheme to a more passer oriented play calling, which doesn't seem to work in washington due to the Oline's failures over the decade.

...Hmmm...the media forced the coaching staff to change?...I don't think so. There are very legitimate reason for Mike Shanahan's firing, but lets not dwell there. And their are reasons for Jay Gruden being hired chief amoung them is his relationship with Bruce Allen. The offense whatever it is will be based on the HC philosophy not a mandate to be more pass oriented.

...RG3's running game seem so elite that it masked the flaws in the 2012 Oline.

But now RG3 is being told not to run the ball anymore, and defenses know this, and are putting more pressure on the below avg Oline of Washington, and basically destroying any form of a Pocket.

Since RG3 isn't running anymore to make up and mask those Oline Flaws, the Offense is struggling.

By RGIII running game i'm assuming you mean the read-option based rushing? There needs to be a clear distinction between designed read-option runs and improv running. And when it comes to improv running Griffin actually doesn't elect to run as often as most people think and when he does he's not a natural runner he's a speed runner.

Anyhow, we don't know whether Gruden's offense is struggling or not because its only preseason.

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Not to beat a dead horse, but the running isn't the problem; it's his ability to protect himself (ie sliding getting out of bounds). 

 

He's never going to be a pure pocket passer.  But he needs to learn the fine details of moving in the pocket and keeping his eyes downfield.  Running qbs don't last in the NFL, hence his wish to learn to pass in the pocket. 

 

Anyone declaring him a bust thinking he should be a finished product in the pocket hasn't been paying attention.  This will be a career move, which in the long run will be good for him and the franchise IMO.  There will be growing pains. 

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once again...couldn't agree with Greenie more. 

 

one thing i got to thinking about with regards to comparisons.  the more i think about it, the more i agree with RGIII's own assessment, or wish to be compared with Aaron Rodgers.  of course...he has a long way to go to get there in terms of consistent passing, but for this discussion...let's stick with running. 

 

i was thinking about everyone's obsession with comparing his running style to a Wilson, or Vick, or Kaepernick (which in truth is less disimilar than the others), but i think these comparisons are way off base. 

 

Wilson - Wilson to me is actually slower to read his options.  part of this i think is due to his (lack of) size & his need to manufacture passing lanes.  this turns into a need to scramble more often than most QB's.  where Wilson excels is in staying behind the LOS with his head up, continuing to look for plays downfield.  still...Wilson actually takes off outside of the pocket more than any QB in the league, but because he makes plays, & because he doesn't turn the ball over, or get hurt...he's seen as a shining example of how to "run."  still...one could argue that while he excels at this aspect...he still has to improve from inside the pocket as his accuracy dips if he doesn't have wide open passing lanes within the pocket. 

 

back to running though...

 

Wilson is elusive, uses pump-fakes to manipulate defenders, & doesn't take unnecessary contact.  this is ideal for a QB on the move (notice i did not say "running QB")..but this is not how RGIII runs (more on that later).

 

Vick - it's well documented that Vick would almost rather run than pass from the pocket, although adept at either (just not nearly as much so as a passer).  still, Vick is an elusive runner.  he can cut, & move like a RB or elusive WR, & if it weren't for his penchant for inviting contact to arrive taking himself out of a play, he would also be an ideal runner.  it is the last part that has derailed his career due to injuries.

 

Kaepernick - now we're getting closer.  Kaep is much more of a straight-line runner.  while still elusive, he is very much a QB who runs to an open area in the defense rather than a QB who runs just because the play has broken down slightly.  he's not nearly as adept as Wilson is at keeping a play alive, & he doesn't make the best decisions on run vs pass.  he often stares down WR's (or his TE), & when that option is lost, he's usually looking for an open running lane.  some of this is due to play-calling as SF runs a lot of simiar WC 2-route or 1 route options off of play-action, but a lot of it falls on Kaep.  where he differs, or excels, is that he...i think more so than Wilson, seems to have a better sense of oncoming defenders & is able to evade them.  mind you...i wouldn't call him elusive necessarily...but he either gets down, gets out, or gets rid of the football pretty well. 

 

while RGIII & Kaepernick have some similarities...although, i feel that RGIII is better prepared/capable of operating from within the pocket at this time in their careers.  also...both QB's run in a similar straight-line style, with Kaep being much better versed at avoiding contact & ending a play with minimum injury potential.  to me, that's where the similarities end, however.  i feel that RGIII runs more like Aaron Rodgers in that Rodgers is also a straight-line runner who a ) does not shy away from contact, & b ) when he turns upfield, he is trying to gain maximum yardage with minimum regard for his body.  Rodgers is a straight-line runner who does not evade defenders all that well, but he's so adept at passing from within the pocket that running is just an extra dimension to his game.

 

this is what you want from RGIII, with much less wreckless abandon.  it's fine to be a straight-line runner, & even better to be so with his world class speed.  however, the better he gets at manipulating the pocket & thrashing a pass defense, the more that his running ability will be able to shine.  i think, all too often he's trying to gain yards in critical down/distances & feels like he needs to make something happen.  Manning the elder was also guilty of this during a patch in his early career as he didn't have the players around him.  he mentioned several times that he felt that his INTs were a result of him trying to make too much happen that wasn't there because nothing else would give, & his defense gave up points like free samples at a Costco on Sunday. 

 

i have faith though.

 

i believe that in RGIII, i see an intelligent man who wants to do whatever it takes to help the team win.  this is a dichotomy that is often at odds with one another because often to do so, means to expose yourself to greater harm in sacrifice towards the greater goal. 

 

but i believe it's coming.  i believe that we need to start moving the ball within the confines of the offensive scheme.  with that comes belief in the system.  with that comes the confidence to just go out & execute, in faith that the coaches are doing the right things to put you in a position to succeed.  i think...that with this reciprocation, RGIII will feel much less necessity to make these plays happen & will show the poise to give up on a play that isn't there, or to get down 6 yards short of a first on 3rd & 12 in the 2nd quarter.  it's like the old "trust your teammates" schpiel they give about NBA legends.  if the defense isn't leaking profusely, then i imagine the pressure to run & make things happen will lessen. 

 

the main things in the way are the OL & their ability to maintain an acceptable pocket, & our ability to consistently run the ball.  when those things are clicking, i think we will see a dynamic RGIII with an ability to once again confound defensive schemes & philosophies to the extent he did in 2012.  if the OL is abismal in pass-pro, & we can't get more than 3 ypc, i think we will have to hope our defense is keeping the game close enough so that RGIII doesn't feel like he absolutely has to make something happen.

 

of course...he can do better at recognizing more reasonable opportunities from within the pocket...but for the sake of this discussion, pertaining only to his running...i want to see him improve in his decision making as far as when/how to get down or get out.  but i also want to see the team pick up its game to where he doesn't feel the need to go all Kobe Bryant out there.

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Imo, RG3 is obviously NOT a pocket passer. Not sure if he will ever have the poise and patience to stay in a pocket that long. or to buy time IN a pocket until wr's get open. So, he may not be the answer for this offense. Right now, I believe Cousins gives this team the best overall chance to win in this type offense. Just my opinion. If RG3 can learn it and catch on, he has much more potential to be better though.

 

But none of the players agree with you.  I am fine if Kirk HAS to come in, sort of like that Cleveland game or against Baltimore for a couple of plays, but I don't think anyone has proven or has evidence from players who see them in practice and get a feel for them that RG3 is not the guy who gives us the best chance to win.  Does that mean Cousins doesn't do certain things that stand out? No, but is that enough to start THIS season (maybe last season, I wouldn't have an issue with that) with him?  Heck no.

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Russell Wilson is a good example of what I'd like to see in RGIII when he runs. When RGIII runs he tries to make a play by himself. When Wilson runs he looks to make the best play available (eyes down field looking to pass). If running the ball is the best available play he protects himself from taking big hits. DBs have to stay with their man because they know he will find the open receiver and this can create more space for him to run without taking punishment.

 

Willson-----looking to throw is first priority.

RGIII--------looking to run is ONLY option.

 

I'd like to see RGIII go an entire game without taking one big hit.

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Its tough to boil down one factor as "thee" cause for a football team's success or failure.And to my eye Griffin looked pretty much back to normal by week 4. The reasons the for not being good after Griff's rookie year run the gamut: personnel, special teams, coach/player conflict, playcalling/gameplan, QB play etc......Hmmm...the media forced the coaching staff to change?...I don't think so. There are very legitimate reason for Mike Shanahan's firing, but lets not dwell there. And their are reasons for Jay Gruden being hired chief amoung them is his relationship with Bruce Allen. The offense whatever it is will be based on the HC philosophy not a mandate to be more pass oriented.By RGIII running game i'm assuming you mean the read-option based rushing? There needs to be a clear distinction between designed read-option runs and improv running. And when it comes to improv running Griffin actually doesn't elect to run as often as most people think and when he does he's not a natural runner he's a speed runner.Anyhow, we don't know whether Gruden's offense is struggling or not because its only preseason.

I am not at a computer. So sorry I can't post a response to each part like you had edited it.

Let's start with the media. The backlash from the media was the major turning point with fans when it came to the read option running game hat RG3 was great with. The Ravens game was the turning point. But before that, his running game was never critisied this much. The following season the coach and staff was attacked to the point that going back to the read option would cause more outcry. Problem is, that the Oline isn't good enough for traditional pocket passing. That's the whole point of RG3's rookie talents was at he got the Oline out of trouble. How long did he go without being sacked? That's proof enough.

We know, the media run this country. Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars. Read that, and see that even the Govermenrt agrees with me. It was the media's anti Mobile QB controversy that sparked this major issue

Also I want to ask you all another thing.

With the Redskins's current weapons, would they be more successful playing this new pocket passing system or would they be more successful with the 2012 offensive system using the same weapons they have today?

Answer me that please.

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Also I want to ask you all another thing.

With the Redskins's current weapons, would they be more successful playing this new pocket passing system or would they be more successful with the 2012 offensive system using the same weapons they have today?

Answer me that please.

I think the 2012 offense would be more successful, but since the injury everybody knows--including defenses--we're afraid to run it.  I think the real question might be, seeing as how our OL can rarely form a pocket, which style is more likely to get RG hurt? 

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I watched his 2012 highlight tape, and honestly don't see the point in trying to change his game aside from maybe encouraging more sideline runs/slides/better overall decision making when it comes to taking hits. If Griffin ran like Kaepernick he probably wouldn't get so much flack. But regardless of read option or whatever, Griffin looked WAY more comfortable when he was just out there doing his thing, although one big thing I noticed is that Griffin's explosiveness/elusiveness doesn't seem to be anything like it was then based on his 2013 performance as well as his preseason runs, which is understandable considering the severity of his knee injury. I liked his 2012 passing style a lot, especially when the play broke down. Sure he should definitely get better with going through reads properly, getting the ball out faster, but man, watch that 2012 tape. I almost forgot how much I loved his play action fake, **** was so smooth lol

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 Houston will give us some answers, I hope.

 

 My guess is the pocket will not be there much, if any, so designed roll-outs, throwing on the run will be his best option.

I'm just not all cozy inside of seeing Griffin running, unless he's been strongly urged to run out of bounds and stop taking hits. But he can throw on the run, so maybe Gruden will have the gameplan for him to roll out the majority of times; unless the o-line surprises us all.

 

Patience vs being creamed in the backfield is not something to risk with a mobile QB; if the pocket passing game isn't there, it isn't there; adjust and neutraslize the rush with quick passes or roll-outs.

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Him running isn't the problem. His decision making after he runs, on the other hand...

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I will add in all of my wisdom, that after that first hit, he would've been headed toward the sideline, since he was kinda already there...those last two hits only happened because he was still in bounds & there were no repercussions for hitting him(hint: not tackling--HITTING.) I want this team to punch opposing teams in the mouth, but PLAY FAIR! Tackle properly, wrap up. Hits may make a SportsCenter highlight, it may also kill a career.
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Whatever, whatever. There are no more excuses, Griffin's got to produce now. However he gets the job done, who really cares. All this stuff about him having to learn the offense & being a pocket passer is getting really old and actually is very concerning to me. Here's a guy in his third year that is supposed to be our future and all the talk is him still having a lot to learn about being an NFL QB. I just want the guy to go out and play lights out, however he does it, does it really matter? At the end of the day, he's got to be who he is and play however he's got to to be successful. As I've said in past posts, I have faith in Griffin, but it wavers more by the day. How he starts the season is going to play huge into his relevance moving forward. If he plays well, then hope is alive and he can build off that as the season progresses. If he comes out and stinks the joint up, that could be the beginning of the end of him and things will likely snowball negatively from there. One last thing, I really wish he would drop the RG3 thing too. What great or even good NFL QB has ever gone by a flashy, childish, if not a superhero type of nickname both on & off the field as if it were their actual name?

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