RonArtest15

***2017-18 NBA Playoffs Thread***

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1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Kyrie Irving lost at least 60 million dollars.  To this day, do we know why he demanded to be traded last summer instead of waiting to first sign a DPVE?

We'll never know unless Kyrie or someone wants the press to talk about it.  The NBA press constantly alludes to the fact that they are aware of what goes on behind the scenes, but there seems to be a code of some sort that keeps them quiet.  Think of how long the Washington press sat on the details of the gun drama in the Wizards locker room or how they waited until contracts were signed before revealing that Beal and Wall hated each other. 

 

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

You're right.  The NFL draft won.  Twice as many people watched the first round as watched the NBA games that were on against it.

The NFL has more fans which explains the ratings, but for fans of both watching the draft is simply the wrong choice. 

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40 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

This all makes sense, and most of it I agree with, I just gotta ask:  Why do you feel Kyrie isn't a transcendent guy?

 

He's already one of the most dominant iso scores in the NBA and proven he can do that at the highest level as well.  Is it the health you're worried about, don't want to wait around to see if he stays healthy considering what he's going to cost against their cap?  In a lot of ways I get where you're coming from, but I feel he's exactly what this team needs to beat the Warriors all things considered.  If that's not what they need, what is it more specifically?  

 

Kyrie is only an ISO ball scorer.  He's a limited player.  It's not enough to just be a great scorer off the dribble, to be a transcendent player you need to be great at multiple things: creating for others, playing defense, rebounding, etc.

 

The reason i think you need a guy like this in order to contend is to match the advantage that the other contenders get from their transcendent guys.  LeBron and Durant and Curry can carry you to a championship by taking over a series with their scoring and shot creation, but they also carry you by making your offense or defense go during the regular season as well.  It's a huge advantage for team building when all of that comes within the package of a single player with one salary commitment.  Kyrie gives you iso scoring, but you still need other great players to give you playmaking and defense and rebounding and all that other stuff.  That is hard to find and even harder to keep.

8 minutes ago, Destino said:

We'll never know unless Kyrie or someone wants the press to talk about it.  The NBA press constantly alludes to the fact that they are aware of what goes on behind the scenes, but there seems to be a code of some sort that keeps them quiet.  Think of how long the Washington press sat on the details of the gun drama in the Wizards locker room or how they waited until contracts were signed before revealing that Beal and Wall hated each other. 

 

I honestly think he just didn't know he was giving up the chance to sign a DPVE by forcing his way out of Cleveland.  It's the only explanation I can think of for why someone couldn't simply tough it out (on a Finals contender) for a year to get a 60 million dollar bonus.

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3 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

And if the Cavs pick turns into a superstar? What's the point of determining who won or lost this trade already? 

That superstar has to be as good or better then Kyrie, getting IT as well is negated because now IT is gone. 

 

It might of seemed an overload at first, but now its looking like a steal (a #8 pick you hope is as good as Kyrie and a pack of condoms).  Additionally, that pick is likely going to used to replace what they lost in giving up in Kyrie and realized they weren't going to get from IT, if they were able to say "hey we got IT, lets address another need", sure, but now they don't have PG and LeBron is likely leaving because of it. 

 

Boston is will be in the finals next year and the Cavs might not even make the playoffs.  If Boston keeps Kyrie and he can't stay healthy, maybe we can talk, but what if Ainge flips Kyrie for a lottery pick that also is a superstar?  What if they do that and the guy the Cavs draft is a bust?  We can wait a year or two to see how that plays out, but again, I'm sticking with Boston winning this one until proven otherwise (if I had to pick either side).

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

That superstar has to be as good or better then Kyrie, getting IT as well is negated because now IT is gone. 

 

It might of seemed an overload at first, but now its looking like a steal (a #8 pick you hope is as good as Kyrie and a pack of condoms).  Additionally, that pick is likely going to used to replace what they lost in giving up in Kyrie and realized they weren't going to get from IT, if they were able to say "hey we got IT, lets address another need", sure, but now they don't have PG and LeBron is likely leaving because of it. 

 

Boston is will be in the finals next year and the Cavs might not even make the playoffs.  If Boston keeps Kyrie and he can't stay healthy, maybe we can talk, but what if Ainge flips Kyrie for a lottery pick that also is a superstar?  What if they do that and the guy the Cavs draft is a bust?  We can wait a year or two to see how that plays out, but again, I'm sticking with Boston winning this one until proven otherwise (if I had to pick either side).

 

There is no doubt this may be a really lopsided trade in Boston's favor. From the Cavs perspective, some of it depends on if they had any other trade offers on the table and if they had planned to rebuild next season by assuming LeBron was leaving. It wasn't a bad gamble to get Brooklyn's pick.  Of course the Cavs probably blew it entirely by not trading Kyrie on draft night last year. I think he had demanded a trade by that time. 

Edited by Hersh
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12 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Kyrie is only an ISO ball scorer.  He's a limited player.  It's not enough to just be a great scorer off the dribble, to be a transcendent player you need to be great at multiple things: creating for others, playing defense, rebounding, etc.

 

The reason i think you need a guy like this in order to contend is to match the advantage that the other contenders get from their transcendent guys.  LeBron and Durant and Curry can carry you to a championship by taking over a series with their scoring and shot creation, but they also carry you by making your offense or defense go during the regular season as well.  It's a huge advantage for team building when all of that comes within the package of a single player with one salary commitment.  Kyrie gives you iso scoring, but you still need other great players to give you playmaking and defense and rebounding and all that other stuff.  That is hard to find and even harder to keep.

 

Hmm... He's not the best defensively, but I looked it up, his defensive ratings are only two spots below Draymond Green.  I think you're being too hard on him in context of what he will be asked to do on a team as stacked as Boston is starting to look like right now.  He's what they need from an elite scoring perspective, I think we need to give him more time with Stevens to see if he can truly maximize him the way he did IT, especially in regards to distributing the basketball.  They ball moves around so much, he doesn't have to be Wall.

 

I'm not even sure why you're putting something out there like rebounds and he's a PG.  Curry only averaged 1 more assist per game then Kyrie and considering Boston already has Tatem and Hayward, I wouldn't want to see them try to get an elite player at the 3 or 4 pushing either to the bench.  We just talked about the dying importance of a center, so again, what really does Boston need besides a player you say needs to be better then Irving?  For me, if they are going to replace him, it should be to get a better PG, but they are already moving the ball incredibly well arleady and need that dominant scoring threat (that's a 2, that's what Irving should be doing and can do).

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33 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

And if the Cavs pick turns into a superstar? What's the point of determining who won or lost this trade already? 

 

If the #8 pick in this particular draft turns into someone better than Irving (and that is pretty much what has to happen at this point), I'll declare the Cavs the winner and send you a money order for $100.00.

 

This is like drawing to an inside straight and saying, "I'm still in the game."

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13 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

There is no doubt this may be a really lopsided trade in Boston's favor. From the Cavs perspective, some of it depends on if they had any other trade offers on the table and if they plan to rebuild next season. Of course the Cavs probably blew it entirely by not trading Kyrie on draft night last year. I think he had demanded a trade by that time. 

Ya, I'm fine with waiting a while to make an official declaration, but odds are favoring Boston mightily in my opinion.  For me, the goal on the Cavs end was if they were going to give up Kyrie they'd get a legit scoring threat in return and an extra piece to add to a LeBron lead team.  To this day, I don't understand why they traded Kyrie if they suspected LeBron might leave, them turning around and saying the pick is for the rebuild was not their original plan and everybody knows it.

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Posted (edited)

Legit question: In an offense like the Celtics (and like the Warriors for that matter) where the ball never stops moving, how important are assists? It's not like Hoston where the ball sticks to a guard, they run a pick n roll and it's either a layup, a dunk for Capella, or a kick for a three. I honestly never watch the Warriors play and think about anyone's assists, aside from possibly Draymond who does make the occasional "Oh my god" pass.

 

Does anyone think that if Kyrie was in Houston, he wouldn't be pushing 10 assists a game?

 

Kyrie is basically in the Durant role in Boston. When they are deep in the clock and nothing is happening, give him the ball and let him do something one on one. And he can pretty much do something one on one any time he wants to do it.  He's one of the best I've ever seen at getting his own shot.

Edited by Lombardi's_kid_brother

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26 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

There is no doubt this may be a really lopsided trade in Boston's favor. From the Cavs perspective, some of it depends on if they had any other trade offers on the table and if they had planned to rebuild next season by assuming LeBron was leaving. It wasn't a bad gamble to get Brooklyn's pick.  Of course the Cavs probably blew it entirely by not trading Kyrie on draft night last year. I think he had demanded a trade by that time. 

 

Here's a thought: he was under contract for three more years and they had Lebron James.

 

Keep him on the team. If it's totally unbearable, trade him before the deadline.

 

They traded for a 5'8 guard, coming off a serious injury who FAILED HIS PHYSICAL.

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Kyrie Irving stops the ball in Boston's offense.  He changes the way they play and their offense was not good this year.  Durant is a very good passer.  Especially for a stretch 5.  And he is an extremely good defensive player.  Plus he's a pretty good rebounder.

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44 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

 

LeBron and Durant and Curry can carry you to a championship by taking over a series with their scoring and shot creation, but they also carry you by making your offense or defense go during the regular season as well. 

 

So, if you took over Boston, your job would be to get Lebron, Durant, or Curry to your team. Or maybe Davis.

Because that's really the list of "transcendent" players right now. I know you don't put Harden or Westbrook on that list. I'm not quite there with Giannis yet. And it's way way early in the game for Simmons and Embiid (and also Simmons was just an abomination in a playoff series).

3 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Kyrie Irving stops the ball in Boston's offense.  He changes the way they play and their offense was not good this year.  Durant is a very good passer.  Especially for a stretch 5.  And he is an extremely good defensive player.  Plus he's a pretty good rebounder.

 

Let's play a game. What would Kyrie Irving have to do in order for Steve to praise him?

 

Be All NBA, win a title, hit a game winning shot in a Game7, etc are not good enough.

 

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

What would Kyrie Irving have to do in order for Steve to praise him?

 

Play for the Wizards or be John Wall? 

 

Maybe if Kyrie suggests the NBA make dunks worth 3pts? 

 

12 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

Golden State +1.5?  Hmmm....

 

Looks like a sucker bet to me.  Desperate Rockets win this one by 5.  

 

This is why you can’t have nice things...

Edited by Momma There Goes That Man
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1 minute ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

Because that's really the list of "transcendent" players right now. I know you don't put Harden or Westbrook on that list. I'm not quite there with Giannis yet. And it's way way early in the game for Simmons and Embiid (and also Simmons was just an abomination in a playoff series).

 

I think Westbrook is a transcendent player.  He's flawed, but he's a true workhorse and he has the competitiveness to lead a franchise.  His BBall IQ isn't great, but he makes way more positive plays than negatives and he can carry a winner.

 

Harden, I'm on the fence about.  I kind of feel the same way about him as I do about DeMarcus Cousins--in terms of the sheer offensive load (and rebounding in Cousins's case) that they can carry, yeah they're transcendent.  But I question their heart.  I don't like that they dog it on defense because I feel both have the tools to be dominant defensive players at their position.  I don't think they are the competitors that the other transcendent guys are.  Although Harden is far more trustworthy than Cousins, who is an emotional loose cannon on top of being a sketchy competitor.

 

I love Giannis and think he's there.  He needs to get a little more consistent, but that kid plays the game like Westbrook.  I think he, Davis, and Embiid are going to be battling for MVPs in the way that LeBron, Curry, and Durant did.

 

Kawhi is a transcendent player if healthy and playing hard on defense.

 

Davis is definitely transcendent too.

 

Towns can get to that level within the next couple of years.  I think Jokic might too.  And I think Wall is just on the edge of it.  I would put them in a similar category of fringe guys who might hit that level.

 

And obviously, I think Embiid and Simmons will get there in a few years.

 

Ayton and Donkic both profile like future transcendent guys.  I would go after them with the same vigor that I would pursue a trade for one of the veteran guys I mentioned.

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28 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

Legit question: In an offense like the Celtics (and like the Warriors for that matter) where the ball never stops moving, how important are assists?

Team assists matter in offenses that build in ball movement more than individual assists.  

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I don't know, the Irving in Stevens system looked like an MVP contender. I think he was held back big time by the awful coaching in Cleveland. Makes you wonder how much better Lebron could be if he played for a Kerr/Stevens/Pop type...

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Posted (edited)

Harden dribbled more than 500 times in game 1. By comparison, Durant dribbled around 180 times 

 

Also:

 

D1F0884D-D986-4255-8E12-CC7862EF7165.png

2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

I don't know, the Irving in Stevens system looked like an MVP contender. I think he was held back big time by the awful coaching in Cleveland. Makes you wonder how much better Lebron could be if he played for a Kerr/Stevens/Pop type...

 

It would be a T-Rex let loose in an alpaca farm 

Edited by Momma There Goes That Man
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

So, if you took over Boston, your job would be to get Lebron, Durant, or Curry to your team. Or maybe Davis.

Because that's really the list of "transcendent" players right now. I know you don't put Harden or Westbrook on that list. I'm not quite there with Giannis yet. And it's way way early in the game for Simmons and Embiid (and also Simmons was just an abomination in a playoff series).

 

Let's play a game. What would Kyrie Irving have to do in order for Steve to praise him?

 

Be All NBA, win a title, hit a game winning shot in a Game7, etc are not good enough.

 

 

What was the Cavs record when Kyrie played but LeBron didn't play? Weren't they massively under .500? That's not to say Kyrie isn't a great scorer, but he won't carry a team as the lead player. 

 

But hey, you can declare a winner of the trade now just because. 

Edited by Hersh

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