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Brian Orakpo: Current most over hyped Redskin? Or as good as advertised?


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#1 Gibbs Hog Heaven

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:04 AM

This is going to be a controversial thread and one that will doubtless get me flack; but the more I read posters talking about tying Brian Orakpo before his rookie deal runs out at the end of this season; or how he's going to come back in beast mode this year; I can't help asking if he is both highly overrated around these here parts; and if we should be looking to cash in and think about trading 'Rak?

I can hear the cry's of distain to those notions as I type, so let me explain what brings me to that line of thinking.

We drafted Orakpo back in 2009 with the 13th. overall pick. At the time, I was personally disappointed, as I really wanted Ole Miss' Michael Oher (Who I think still has a real high ceiling and is among the top end of RT's in this league); as I considered LT at the time a far bigger need than a rush end/ OLB edge rusher. But we plumped for the Longhorn. Given his college record, I quickly came around to the idea and he certainly didn't disappoint in a great, 11 sack rookie season that lead to a PB appearance. But ever since, for all the plaudits he gets from 'Skins fans, he has never fully kicked on for me to justify the hype.

Don't get me wrong, he can still collapse the pocket and wreck haveck in the backfield, but his limitations within that certainly don't justify the esteem many hold him in IMHO. He has one move, period. And that's to bull rush opponents. There's nothing else in his pass rush reportoi. Folk embarrassingly claim he gets unfairly held like that doesn't happen all over the league to evey decent pass rusher worth his salt. The difference being the great ones have multiple moves to beat those holds. Brian doesn't. 4 years into his pro career. To hear Reddkin fans talk, you'd think he was our answer to DeMarcus Ware. When in truth, it would be insulting to Ware to put him in the same bracket. The numbers alone don't deserve comparison. Orakpo, whilst far from bad, is a one trick poney who's limitations in a 34 are glaring. As a pure rush end in a 43 D, or edge rushing OLB, he'd be pretty darn effective. But when the responsibility's go up as a 34 LB, he's found wanting. His pass coverage skills leave a LOT to be desired. And that's imperative for the position in this D. And in NFC East games, he has a woeful record of 3.5 sacks through 18 games. That is NOT the record of a great pass rusher.

Good and effective player no doubt. Great player he most assuredly isn't.

And when you look at what we're developing here in the LB core, you begin to question even more if he's worth paying the money he'll demand.

Ryan Kerrigan for me is everything 'Rak isn't. And a far better overall player. He has a non stop motor, works his tail end off to improve (back to the 4 year vet Orakpo and his one rush move); and he is good in pass pro. Ryan's far more than just a pass rusher. (And his numbers are comparable to Orakpo.). He can do what Brian can't. Make big tackles in the open field. A staple of a 34 LB's job.

The same with Rob Jackson. I'm not for one minute suggesting Rob's as talented as Brian. But as an all round 34 LB his worth is higher than Orakpo's IMHO. He's far better in coverage, has the same constant motor as Kerrigan. And he's shown he can contribute in turnovers and sacks and getting into opposing backfields. And let's not forget last years very prudent 4th round pick, Keenan Robinson; was real versatile in college and was a very effective edge rusher with his speed an athleticism when lined up there for the Longhorns.

Again, I fully expect flack as this goes against the norm questioning a current fan favourite.

But all things considered, not least his shoulder/ pectoral muscle injury concerns; I seriously wonder whether we might be better cashing in on 'Rak whilst we still can in the coming months rather than thinking about extending and over paying for a guy who just does'nt live upto the plaudits if you look beyond the hype.

Hail.


Edited by Gibbs Hog Heaven, 13 September 2013 - 10:31 AM.

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#2 Audible_Red40

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:17 AM

IMO Orakpo is as good as advertised. He brings A LOT to the table. Stats don't say everything. He makes our D better when in the lineup, and Kerrigan benefits from his presence. It's unfortunate about the injury and people thinking he's injury prone.

You can look at stats saying he has 3.5 sacks in 18 games against the NFC east. But has anyone seen the game tape? Is it lack of effort? Is it offensive blocking schemes? Is it non-holding calls? Rak puts in his time and gives effort. You can not deny that. Give me 11 of these guys on defense anyday.

Haters just gonna hate.
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#3 darrelgreenie

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:19 AM

I'm too lazy to do the heavy lifting on this.
But, pass rushing isn't just about sacks.

Its about pressures + hits + sacks / amount of rushing attempts.

Look up those and you'll find where Rak stacks up as a pass rusher.

#4 Gibbs Hog Heaven

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:23 AM

Red, with respect, and I've been a fixture around here as long as yourself to deserve better, the 'Haters just gonna hate' line is as insulting as it is outright lame.

Hail.

Edited by Gibbs Hog Heaven, 30 March 2013 - 08:23 AM.


#5 Audible_Red40

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:27 AM

I am not suggesting you're a hater, but the ones who just say he sucks and lets trade him line is insulting and lame. Those are the haters.

There are quite a few people who don't give a decent argument. He's injury prone, he's got one move, he sucks in coverage etc. Those haters are blind to his real value to this defense and team.

#6 Gibbs Hog Heaven

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:27 AM

I'm too lazy to do the heavy lifting on this.
But, pass rushing isn't just about sacks.

Its about pressures + hits + sacks / amount of rushing attempts.

Look up those and you'll find where Rak stacks up as a pass rusher.


To hear folk talk about him on here man you'd think it was and he's Dexter esq. in the sack department.

Hail.

#7 2cents

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:31 AM

To hear folk talk about him on here man you'd think it was and he's Dexter esq. in the sack department.

Hail.


Speaking of lame arguments using hyperbole......you're exaggerating what his supporters say. Sorry.

#8 Gibbs Hog Heaven

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:31 AM

I am not suggesting you're a hater, but the ones who just say he sucks and lets trade him line is insulting and lame. Those are the haters.

There are quite a few people who don't give a decent argument. He's injury prone, he's got one move, he sucks in coverage etc. Those haters are blind to his real value to this defense and team.


Then I apologise for the misunderstanding.

Again, I appreciate his worth and what he has contributed

I'm just questioning if he's really as good as he's hyped upto be, whether he'll ever improve on the limitations he still has 4 years in; and what the best course of action is for our benefit going forward as regards keeping him or looking at moving him on whilst the values still there.

Hail.

Edited by Gibbs Hog Heaven, 30 March 2013 - 08:33 AM.


#9 DJD2

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:32 AM

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see all the hype you're referring to. He's been a solid player so far in his career and I don't think we have seen his ceiling yet.

#10 SKiNz Jus 2 sick

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:33 AM

Yea hes real overrated look how much heat we got on othr teams the moment he went down.....

#11 #BgMase76#

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:34 AM

I'm going as advertised. Last season showed it on almost every down. By mid way through the season everyone on the boards was trying to come up w/ a blitz scheme. I said in another post. Rak is the ying to Kerrigan's yang. Kerrigan's game is undeniable and clearly shows his ceiling is higher each year. Rak has excelled at exactly what he was drafted for, beast off the edges. Yes, his open field tackling is atrocious if you ask me. Kerrigan has surpassed him. But on the same note I'd like to see them both develop more pass rush moves. This is where Rak makes his bones. He makes the other guys better by drawing the bulk of the attention. Kerrigan wasn't nearly as effective as last season w/ Rak opposite. Jackson did a nice job filling in. But we all knew the pass rush was not the same. Here's another fact. How many games have we all watched yelling at the scream because Rak was getting tackled by an OL?

Edited by #BgMase76#, 30 March 2013 - 08:40 AM.

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#12 Gibbs Hog Heaven

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:35 AM

Speaking of lame arguments using hyperbole......you're exaggerating what his supporters say. Sorry.


I beg differ in a lot of cases.

Prime example was a long running thread on Ware IIRC and arguments in there comparing the two from our end.

Hail.

#13 2cents

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:42 AM

I beg differ in a lot of cases.

Prime example was a long running thread on Ware IIRC and arguments in there comparing the two from our end.

Hail.


Just saying you can't get on someone who says haters are gonna hate and reply back with lovers are gonna love, which you basically did. I was refering to that one post, not your posts in general....which I usually like.

#14 Gart Monk

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:59 AM

"Cashing in" on 98 is an issue that should definitely be considered. IMO his perceived value is greater than his actual production with the Redskins. NFCE teams have figured out that they can leverage him to the outside, and his pass coverage is lacking. If WSH trades him, they actually lose nothing.

#15 Gibbs Hog Heaven

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:11 AM

"Cashing in" on 98 is an issue that should definitely be considered. IMO his perceived value is greater than his actual production with the Redskins. NFCE teams have figured out that they can leverage him to the outside, and his pass coverage is lacking. If WSH trades him, they actually lose nothing.


Pretty much were I'm sat on him.

Far from a bad player who does contributed. But it wouldn't be the great loss people fear given his limitations and his overall game. It would certainly be to our detriment to not look at what would be on offer to my eyes weighed up against what we have and what he gives within that for the salary he'd be looking for.

He's a good player. But nothing like the force many would have you believe IMHO.

But I don't expect that to be a common opinion so it's interesting reading all views on the situation.

Hail.

#16 sjinhan

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:12 AM

I am on the side that Orakpo is definitely over hyped Redskins on the roster...

Some think that, when healthy, Orakpo can be some sort of Demarcus Ware type of player but I just dont see it when I watch the games. Definitely Orakpo is an above average / great at rushing the QB but everything else is somewhat average. Also for a guy that tallies up alot of QB pressures, I just dont see his pressure impacting the play much. I have many more memories of Orakpo "pressuring" the QB to only to have the QB get away for a big play then having the QB being forced into an error as result of the pressure.

This is just from my untrained eye so I might be completely off base.

I do know this... Orakpo should NOT be paid like he is top 5 pass rusher in the league.

Edited by sjinhan, 30 March 2013 - 09:12 AM.


#17 rudc1

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:13 AM

I think the jury is still out. He can still not be in the same bracket as Ware (he's not) but still be as good as advertised.

He was drafted to play in a 4-3, then got switched to a 3-4, then had a lockout shortened off season, then got injured in game 2. I think it's still too early to judge one way or the other. He's been a solid player.

#18 MartinC

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:19 AM

I think the premise of this thread - should we cash in on Orakpo via a trade - is a moot point this year.

He is coming off his second pec tear in 2 years and his trade value has never been lower - selling at the bottom of the market is never a good idea. It's very unlikely we would get anything of equivalent value to what Orakpo offers even if is a one dimensional pass rusher (and I think he is more than that, not elite like a Ware but more than just a guy as well).

This is a big year for Orakpo, a,contract year. If he can play well and produce a 10+ sack season and generate consistent pressure and hold the edge against the run he will get paid here. If not he will likely be allowed to walk but either way he's not getting traded this year IMO.
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#19 Gibbs Hog Heaven

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:29 AM

Not so much trading him now Martin as discussing what direction we go with him in his contract year and finding out people's views on Orakpo's true worth.

Hail.

#20 Bantu

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:30 AM

I think the jury is still out. He can still not be in the same bracket as Ware (he's not) but still be as good as advertised.

He was drafted to play in a 4-3, then got switched to a 3-4, then had a lockout shortened off season, then got injured in game 2. I think it's still too early to judge one way or the other. He's been a solid player.


You're actually wrong. Remember Blache and Co. prepped him to be our SLB, and then the next year we switched to the 3-4 under Haslett. He's never actually been a DE which I think is a good thing because he isn't good against the run. Regardless of his position, he's always been used as our top pass rusher, whether standing up or with his hand in the dirt. The truth is, he isn't an elite pass rusher like JPP, Ware, Peppers, etc. Solid starter, and paired with Kerrigan he can be very effective but he isn't a game changer who constantly needs to be double teamed.

#21 mojo

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:33 AM

He's an above avg player but certainly not elite. Unfortunately when it comes time for a new contract he will be looking for elite money.

#22 Gibbs Hog Heaven

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:38 AM

He's an above avg player but certainly not elite. Unfortunately when it comes time for a new contract he will be looking for elite money.


That's pretty much the crux of it.

What is better for ourselves. Presuming he returns to health and similar to what he's been, let the hype roll and cash in whilst the values still there. Or overpay above and beyond his overall talents just to make do with merely 'good.'

Hail.

#23 War Paint

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:41 AM

He's very good and we did miss him last year. Rob Jackson did fine and made plays for us, but I think Orakpo definitely improves our pass rush. We are still waiting for that DWare 16-18 sack season from him though. Orakpo being in there helps Kerrigan to do better. I realize he gets held all the time, but he has to find a way to break those holds.

#24 Voice_of_Reason

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:44 AM

I will keep this pretty short:

Orakpo is the most talented player on defense. When he went out, everybody on the defense's productivity dropped.

He is not yet the elite pass rusher that he can be. And he needs to stay healthy.

The question for him is can he be fully recovered, and play with abandon, take the next step and become a beast.

Juries out. Only time will tell. But there is no question that he's the most athletic and talented player on the defense.

#25 Gart Monk

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:44 AM

Or overpay above and beyond his overall talents just to make do with merely 'good.'

Hail.


The Fred Davis situation has shown me that FO has outgrown this mentality. Well played Washington... well played!

Edited by Gart Monk, 30 March 2013 - 09:45 AM.


#26 Bantu

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:49 AM

I will keep this pretty short:

Orakpo is the most talented player on defense. When he went out, everybody on the defense's productivity dropped.

He is not yet the elite pass rusher that he can be. And he needs to stay healthy.

The question for him is can he be fully recovered, and play with abandon, take the next step and become a beast.

Juries out. Only time will tell. But there is no question that he's the most athletic and talented player on the defense.


Most talented and athletic, uhhh, maybe. As a football player he couldn't touch London Fletcher with a ten foot pole. The truth is, it doesn't take 4-5 seasons to know if someone is elite or not. We all know how good he is and he is solid, maybe even really good at times. But an All-Pro( remember this is different than pro-bowl) he is not. The jury is not out in this one, we all know what kind of player he is.

Edited by Bantu, 30 March 2013 - 09:51 AM.


#27 skinzwiz

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:51 AM

Orakpo is a great player. It's like people have amnesia. I do get all this overrated overhyped talk. He is a young good player that only can improve if the injury doesn't permanently affect him, which I doubt it will.

People look at stats and fail to realize the holding penalties he forces and the amount of attention he receives from blockers. To those people I have to ask: Are you really a Redskins fan? Are you really watching the games? You should be able to know that from watching the game he played in.

#28 Brixtion_skin

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:52 AM

I say over hyped, but only by the fan base.

#29 2cents

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:52 AM

He's an above avg player but certainly not elite. Unfortunately when it comes time for a new contract he will be looking for elite money.


So you've talked to him and know this for a fact....k. Just playing Devil's advocate here...but you are making a rather sweeping statement based on an assumption.

#30 rumplestilskin

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:58 AM

Its difficult for me to over or under rate a player who has spent large parts of the past two seasons injured. He was showing improvement as time went by and I was excited to see what he could do with a lead for a change which is when his position flourishes. Our current offense would help him alot IMHO. I am not sure what his value would be currently but I do think our need for a pass rusher is more valuable right now than the pick that would be offered for compensation. If he was coming of a 13 sack season his value might help us in a trade but as it stands now he is most valuable to this team and will help our depleted secondary by adding pressure, hurries and sacks. All that being said though Shanny does seem to be adding alot of front seven depth. This latest Tapp signing made me think a possible trade may be entertained. Not that Tapp is anywhere near Rak ability wise but it just smelt fishy to me even with RJ suspension considered. Reoccurring injuries is something Shanny has little patience for.

#31 walkman

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 10:03 AM

I still think the ceiling is high with Orakpo.I believe he will come out and prove those doubters wrong.With the secondary as horrible as it is,we need Rak to come back 100%.

#32 HighOnHendrix

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 10:04 AM

Not so much trading him now Martin as discussing what direction we go with him in his contract year and finding out people's views on Orakpo's true worth.

Hail.


As Martin said, his play this year will determine that. Best course of action IMO is to extend him if he plays well, let him play out his current contract and hit FA if he doesn't. Trading him is also complicated by Rob Jackson being suspended the first four games, since you'd probably have to wait until RJ comes back to feel comfortable about making that move. So you've got two weeks to work out a deal that brings good value? Good luck with that.

I see where you're coming from in wanting to get something back for him versus letting him walk but it's sort of like the calls for trading up/down in the draft we hear every year: it only works if you've got other teams interested in what you've got - willing trade partners. And the facts you're pointing out about his play are not bolstering that trade value. Combine a short trade window with diminished value due to injury/hype and the simple truth is it's likely not worth it to consider a trade. Put another way: how many teams are going to want/need to bring him in at Week 5 and be willing to give up a 2nd?

#33 KCClybun

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 10:12 AM

Its difficult for me to over or under rate a player who has spent large parts of the past two seasons injured.


He played in all 16 games in 2011. What are you talking about?

#34 SKINSFAN87

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 10:14 AM

I believe he is good as advertised as long as he can stay healthy and fine tune his mechanics. He has the drive and physical tools that is required to be great, so if he can work on his mechanics a little bit more, he can (imo) be the best out there.

#35 MartinC

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 10:20 AM

Not so much trading him now Martin as discussing what direction we go with him in his contract year and finding out people's views on Orakpo's true worth.

Hail.


I think all we can do is see where we stand at the end of the year - hopefully he stays healthy and plays like one of the better edge pass rushers in the league. If he does I'm sure we will be happy to extend him and pay him though it might be hard to agree his value.

Edited by MartinC, 30 March 2013 - 10:25 AM.


#36 rumplestilskin

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 10:29 AM

He played in all 16 games in 2011. What are you talking about?


I never said he didn't play I said he spent large parts of the past two seasons injured. Dont forget about the high ankle sprain he was nursing all year in 2011.

#37 skinsdomination09

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 10:33 AM

Our pash rush without rack is abbysmal. He is a great pass rusher.

Keenan hasn't proved anything. at all.

My only thoughts.

---------- Post added March-30th-2013 at 11:37 AM ----------

Trade him and get what?

A marginal player and a 2/3rd round pick. What are the chances that pick/player can have both the potential production and actual production that rack does? The trade argument is stupid. Guy is 3 years into the league and when healthy has been as advertised.

#38 MartinC

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 10:37 AM

Our pash rush without rack is abbysmal. He is a great pass rusher.

Keenan hasn't proved anything. at all.

My only thoughts.


Keenan Robinson is a backup inside linebacker - do you mean Kerrigan?

#39 skinsdomination09

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 10:40 AM

Keenan Robinson is a backup inside linebacker - do you mean Kerrigan?


Nope. In the OP it mentioned Keenan's "potential" or whatever. Which I thought was ridiculous. Keenan may have been "good in college" but almost every draft pick was and being blunt he has shown nothing that has "wowed" me.


And trading rack now would be so stupid. He is high end talent that we would get little in return for and his value is at it's lowest. Not even an option.

*no disrespect to the OP though

Edited by skinsdomination09, 30 March 2013 - 10:41 AM.


#40 Gibbs Hog Heaven

Gibbs Hog Heaven

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 10:46 AM

Personally speaking, I'd be interested to see what Robinson could do in the position at this level. I appreciate we're looking long term at London retiring and having him focus solely on the inside, but he has the tools to play both roles as he did in Texas.

I was just saying we are developing good options through the LB core. Not comparing the as yet relatively unproven KR at this level to Orakpo.

And absolutely no disrespect was taken bud.

Hail.

Edited by Gibbs Hog Heaven, 30 March 2013 - 10:50 AM.





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