Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

rd421

SOW| Native Americans Speaking Out In Support of Redskins Name

Recommended Posts

Tarpon75   
In addition to it being right and good, Snyder would be wise to donate time and money to supporting Native American/Indian causes such as fighting diabetes, gambling or alcohol addiction, poverty, etc.
Very good thought,how about the Redskins as a whole doing something,including fans? Maybe even an awareness and fund raising day at the stadium.I know that I would be willing to be involeved and I believe most fans would do the same.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DC9   
In addition to it being right and good, Snyder would be wise to donate time and money to supporting Native American/Indian causes such as fighting diabetes, gambling or alcohol addiction, poverty, etc.

Absolutely, my first take away from this article is "where can I help out with this?"

Very good article Ray and thank you for sharing with us Kevin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Spearfeather   
Guest Spearfeather

-------

Rumour has it, that Paul Lukas smashed his laptop when he read this article.

" Kevin " makes some great points ( along with SonnyandSam ) on what a " non - issue " this is to Native Americans, and the origins of the use of the word.

I wonder what the reaction in the media would be, if a representative from a local tribe came out to the stadium and made a short speech at halftime, endorsing the team name.

Hail to the Redskins

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
grego   
Reliance on a poll like that is dangerous IMO. Any sociologist would tell you that. There's simply no way to sufficiently quantify who feels the offensiveness of the word.

And now Confirmation of this query:

The poll used in the article, cited as the "latest poll" is a phone survey from 2003-2004, with 700+ Native Americans from different parts of the country participating.

The poll is 10 years old. It has 700+ subjects involved. There are 1.5 million Native Americans living in the US today. Doesn't add up.

I'm a sociology major and if I handed this article in (a bunk poll and an interview with one guy) and tried to pass it off as an argument that the name isn't racist, I'd get laughed at and promptly failed.

whats frustrating to me is the ignorance surrounding this issue, not the least of which is you being a member mere since 2006 and just now taking issue with this poll, which has been mentioned and scrutinized to death on this board every time this ridiculous issue is raised.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Xero21   

I have to say, I'm not particularly a fan of this article. I don't really have a preference about the name, if it stays I'm fine, if it goes I'm fine. But some of this stuff kind of irks me a little bit. "Brown indians on reservations have more important issues to worry about"? I understand what he was trying to say there, but it comes across as fairly racist in its own right.

And to be honest, it doesn't really sound like this guy Kevin actually "supports" the Redskins name. Instead it just sounds like he wants everyone who feels offended by it to sit down and shut up because making a fuss about it might cause people to feel negatively towards Native Americans. But fear of repercussion is absolutely NOT a good reason to stop standing against something you believe is wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have to say, I'm not particularly a fan of this article. I don't really have a preference about the name, if it stays I'm fine, if it goes I'm fine. But some of this stuff kind of irks me a little bit. "Brown indians on reservations have more important issues to worry about"? I understand what he was trying to say there, but it comes across as fairly racist in its own right.

And to be honest, it doesn't really sound like this guy Kevin actually "supports" the Redskins name. Instead it just sounds like he wants everyone who feels offended by it to sit down and shut up because making a fuss about it might cause people to feel negatively towards Native Americans. But fear of repercussion is absolutely NOT a good reason to stop standing against something you believe is wrong.

I honestly can't possibly disagree with you more. It sounds like Kevin believes that a majority of the Natives who are speaking out (as well as all the other people who have voiced their opinions on the matter) are more than happy to spend time, money and effort in campaigns to get rid of mascots, but do nothing to actually help people on reservations. In fact, if you read into his statements, the resentment IMO comes from that very fact. Some of the hardships in reservations could be avoided if all these people screaming for the name to be changed instead donated $1 to a reservation or urged their congressman to add funding to local reservations, they can do a lot more for their people.

Excuse me if I think its pathetic that people are whining about a name yet aren't giving 1/10th of that effort to actually trying to improve the lives of those natives they believe are being "offended". Maybe I'm just reading into it and projecting my own beliefs onto his statements, but it really comes off like he (and I'm sure many others) believe this is a non-issue and that these "efforts" would be better used with the bigger problems that Natives today face.

But hey, if you're uncomfortable using a name that was originated by Native Americans to begin with, maybe you should let that feeling move you to doing something to help those people instead of make yourself feel better by getting a less "offensive" name to root for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RFKFedEx   

If anyone is keeping score in 2013, we've been crushed by 15+ national voices over the past two months. We have a couple of local voices supporting us in a team blog and a home town radio station at 106.7.

Did I forget anyone else?

But we can all win this battle if we just keep fighting the media. It will all go away eventually right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To those who took away from this that he doesn't necessarily support the name, he just doesn't care, I don't quite agree. There are a few places in the article where he comes off as proud that a child would choose to dress up like an Indian for Halloween. He even refers to such children as his (meaning brown Indians) fan base.

The fact that he calls himself a brown Indian to differentiate from white Indians is fairly telling as well- it's obviously acceptable, common, and unoffensive to him to refer to Indians by their skin color. It's therefore unlikely that seeing a team called the Redskins would do anything but invoke pride in the fact that his people have a fan base. He doesnt see the "red" part, because language like that is normal to him.

And lastly, decrying a poll because it only used 700 participants is a pretty strong indicator that you've never taken a statistics course. Keep in mind, most presidential polls you saw last year used about 1500 participants to estimate (pretty accurately) how 300 million people would vote in November. A poll of 700 people drawn from a population of 1.5 million is not bunk by any means.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SkinsGuy   
If anyone is keeping score in 2013, we've been crushed by 15+ national voices over the past two months. We have a couple of local voices supporting us in a team blog and a home town radio station at 106.7.

Did I forget anyone else?

But we can all win this battle if we just keep fighting the media. It will all go away eventually right?

Yes it will... when the offseason is over. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
http://sonofwashington.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/6994064984_bcf80c4834_b.jpg

The Washington Redskins have been under tremendous scrutiny over the last couple of months in regard to what some consider an “offensive” and “racist” name. While the group of complainants only make up 9% of the Native American population (according to the latest poll), many have wondered why the other 91% have been left unspoken.

It’s easy to assume the silence means indifference to the name, but you have to consider the repercussions of speaking out against the popular opinion of the Native American Media. Such punishments can range from the removal from the tribe, as well as professions ruined.

Nice to see you back rd, also great write up. This should make Mark Maske look on with bewilderment, as in so that is how is done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Edit: and with all the grief Snyder and the team get over the name, they'd make incredible amounts of cash by changing the name. Replacement hats, shirts, jerseys, mugs, flags, posters, etc. Not saying everyone would upgrade, but certainly far more merchandise would move. They are trying to preserve tradition. It'd be easy to fold at the first sign of pressure and get a nice, fat check for one's troubles.

On the contrary, branding and corporate identity are incredibly expensive to replace, and can take years to build. Not to say it can't be done, but it takes a lot of effort and there's no and there's no guarantee that the new branding would be successful with an old audience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In addition to it being right and good, Snyder would be wise to donate time and money to supporting Native American/Indian causes such as fighting diabetes, gambling or alcohol addiction, poverty, etc.

I agree it would go a long way. The Chicago Blackhawks have done similar outreaches and it has worked out well for them and the tribes they've partnered with.

The franchise lacks a credible Native voice on our behalf.

Good point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And lastly, decrying a poll because it only used 700 participants is a pretty strong indicator that you've never taken a statistics course. Keep in mind, most presidential polls you saw last year used about 1500 participants to estimate (pretty accurately) how 300 million people would vote in November. A poll of 700 people drawn from a population of 1.5 million is not bunk by any means.

It was done 10(!) years ago. My problem is if you're going to make this argument don't base it around that poll if you're trying to convince someone (Wise et al) who already believes it to be a racist name.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2cents   
It was done 10(!) years ago. My problem is if you're going to make this argument don't base it around that poll if you're trying to convince someone (Wise et al) who already believes it to be a racist name.

It doesn't matter if you made a poll today of every Native American and the results were the same. People like Wise already have made up their mind and facts don't matter. It's not about facts, it's about control. Media feels they have the right to force their opinion on everyone through intimidation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
grego   

But we can all win this battle if we just keep fighting the media. It will all go away eventually right?

the offseason has something to do with it, but i believe it would (all but) go away when people educate themselves on the facts surrounding the name (and when more voices like this get out), rather than take as gospel the ridiculous "its obviously a slur" mantra.

one high profile, intelligent commentator with some guts to go against the tide can turn this around.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It doesn't matter if you made a poll today of every Native American and the results were the same. People like Wise already have made up their mind and facts don't matter. It's not about facts, it's about control. Media feels they have the right to force their opinion on everyone through intimidation.

Exactly. UnWise Mike, during his presentation at the seminar advocated "intimidation" to force a change. He believes people like me should be intimidated and embarrassed by calling me a "racist" or other names to get HIS change made. He is not interested in a debate on the merits or facts. He's decided, partially based on some personal discussions with Native Americans, that it is a racist name and needs to be changed because we would never tolerate a team being called the N word or "blackskins" or "dagos" or some other truly derogatory name. He has already decided for all of us that it IS a racist name despite the facts to the contrary. And most if not all the media are too chicken to stand up to this kind of intimidation because they do not want to be called a "racist" by these liberal neanderthals who refuse to consider the facts.

You, know, IF anyone could prove that "red skins" was actually used at some point to mean "bloody scalps" most if not all of us would immediately say, "you're right, Mike; the name needs to go." But they cannot. The facts are on our side and not theirs.

Admittedly, "redskins" is an arcane word no longer used in our common vocabulary except to reference the Redskins. But that does not make it racist because it is just an old term used 200 years ago.

:logo:

---------- Post added March-2nd-2013 at 04:12 PM ----------

If anyone is keeping score in 2013, we've been crushed by 15+ national voices over the past two months. We have a couple of local voices supporting us in a team blog and a home town radio station at 106.7.

Did I forget anyone else?

But we can all win this battle if we just keep fighting the media. It will all go away eventually right?

Are you being sarcastic, RFK? This fight has been around for at least 20 years, mostly brought up by a Post reporter from time to time. I expect it will continue to be brought up regularly. I am not too concerned about Danny caving but I am concerned that the NFL and the other NFL owners may create enough economic pressure to force a change if the political pressure is great enough to change the name. The end game is going to be hard to win unless there is vocal support for the name from Native American groups like the Seminole tribe that supports the Florida Seminoles name. Fan support alone is not going to be enough to fight the media onslaught. The NCAA has threatened to prevent Florida from participating in NCAA championship tournaments for all sports because of their name. Only the strong vocal support from the Seminole Tribe has prevented Florida from not changing their name.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I teach New Mexico History at a high school in Albuquerque. Each term I have my students write a paper on the ethics of using Native American mascots and team names. I read this particular article but couldn't help but classify it with most of the others, on both sides of this argument, that simply aren't really convincing.

Honestly, I love the Redskins and don't want to see the name changed, but continuing to use the name is indefensible. OK, so it's an "honor" to Native Americans. Many Native Americans don't care. The team has its own history and legacy that's not necessarily the same as this country's cultural genocide of Native Americans.

But what these arguments don't recognize as an unmistakable truth is that the name stereotypes Native Americans, is in fact a racial epithet, and originated in a time when people simply did not give much consideration to whether or not they were being racist. Changing the name isn't political correctness gone amok; it's recognizing that we've been blind to our implicit racism for too long.

Again, as a lifelong Redskins fan, I'd personally hate to have to call my team something different. But I nevertheless recognize that we probably should. And heck, for me it's a double-whammy because I'm from Cleveland and am also an Indians fan. I have Chief Wahoo mugs and shirts, but both the name and the logo promote racial stereotypes. Maybe 90% of people don't see it that way, but I think that's because they haven't really stopped or had reason to think about it very much because the stereotypes don't come at their expense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2cents   
I teach New Mexico History at a high school in Albuquerque. Each term I have my students write a paper on the ethics of using Native American mascots and team names. I read this particular article but couldn't help but classify it with most of the others, on both sides of this argument, that simply aren't really convincing.

Honestly, I love the Redskins and don't want to see the name changed, but continuing to use the name is indefensible. OK, so it's an "honor" to Native Americans. Many Native Americans don't care. The team has its own history and legacy that's not necessarily the same as this country's cultural genocide of Native Americans.

But what these arguments don't recognize as an unmistakable truth is that the name stereotypes Native Americans, is in fact a racial epithet, and originated in a time when people simply did not give much consideration to whether or not they were being racist. Changing the name isn't political correctness gone amok; it's recognizing that we've been blind to our implicit racism for too long.

Again, as a lifelong Redskins fan, I'd personally hate to have to call my team something different. But I nevertheless recognize that we probably should. And heck, for me it's a double-whammy because I'm from Cleveland and am also an Indians fan. I have Chief Wahoo mugs and shirts, but both the name and the logo promote racial stereotypes. Maybe 90% of people don't see it that way, but I think that's because they haven't really stopped or had reason to think about it very much because the stereotypes don't come at their expense.

I don't see any compelling argument for change there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RD,

I have mentioned this before. I am not saying you are doing anything wrong. I don't believe you to be, and I don't support changing the name of the franchise, so let me go on record there. However, you need to do some serious quality control on your site. Content Director, right?

>Who is "Kevin"? Did you meet with him and speak to him? Did you do anything to verify that his opinion is a Native American opinion, or even that he is Native American? The viewpoint may be intriguing, but its power in this piece comes from the assumption that it is a Native American stating it. You offer no proof or evidence that it is. As such, you or I could have written that letter and that does more than grant you zero credibility; it makes you look unaccountable or worse, that you drummed this up yourself. Again, because reading comprehension is low around here, I'm not saying you did anything wrong, but you need to state that you at least followed up to make sure this wasn't just anybody before titling the post "Native Americans Speak Out..."

>You could calso have posted this stating that you've been receiving e-mails from people claiming to be Native Americans, and it raises an interesting viewpoint that you will paraphrase and consider as if genuine. This doesn't leave the door open for your integrity to be questioned.

I support you and your blog and you are getting bigger and better. Make sure your content is vetted and accounted for, especally when your main piece is a socially volatile claim that Native Americans who protest the Redskins moniker are "white" or self-opposed unreal Indian people.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RFKFedEx   
Are you being sarcastic, RFK?

Yes. Keeping the name and Native imagery is a battle not worth fighting IMO. Native leaders have asked us to change. Nobody has been winning on the defensive side of this game. The problem will only get worse before it gets better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
JoeSkins   
If anyone is keeping score in 2013, we've been crushed by 15+ national voices over the past two months. We have a couple of local voices supporting us in a team blog and a home town radio station at 106.7.

Did I forget anyone else?

But we can all win this battle if we just keep fighting the media. It will all go away eventually right?

It's no one's battle but Snyder's and he has already won. Snyder has the law on his side and public opinion isn't indicating any potential financial harm to him. Nobody is boycotting games over this and barely anyone is paying attention. Nothing will come of this because the story is being driven by a handful of ADD media types who only picked it up because they have to generate daily content and it's an easy little pile to drop on your editor/producer's desk. They don't actually care about anything but meeting deadlines and hitting quotas so when a real story comes along it will be yesterday's news.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't see any compelling argument for change there.

Then you probably didn't consider what I wrote very carefully. Redskin is a racial epithet. Indian kids at my school are sometimes called "redskins" or told to "go back to the res" much the same way that Blacks are called "darkies" or Hispanics are called "beaners." It's the same sort of stereotypical, racist epithet.

The name--and the image--promote the idea of the Indian as something from the past, primitive, and removed from modern society.

Again, I personally want to keep the name for selfish reasons, but there's no getting around the fact that both the name and logo are ethically stereotypical. When it comes down to it, it's indefensible on moral ground.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2cents   
Then you probably didn't consider what I wrote very carefully. Redskin is a racial epithet. Indian kids at my school are sometimes called "redskins" or told to "go back to the res" much the same way that Blacks are called "darkies" or Hispanics are called "beaners." It's the same sort of stereotypical, racist epithet.

The name--and the image--promote the idea of the Indian as something from the past, primitive, and removed from modern society.

Again, I personally want to keep the name for selfish reasons, but there's no getting around the fact that both the name and logo are ethically stereotypical. When it comes down to it, it's indefensible on moral ground.

Changing the name of our team will solve none of that. I prefer focusing on the real, not the symbolic. And btw, if you don't know, we use the current logo by the request, and virtual design of, the former head of the American Cousel of Indians. All the Native Americans I know, and there are several, all love the logo and don't mind the name at all and think it does a lot to keep Native American history in the minds of people. Their opinion, which appears to be in the majority, should count.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bang   
If anyone is keeping score in 2013, we've been crushed by 15+ national voices over the past two months. We have a couple of local voices supporting us in a team blog and a home town radio station at 106.7.

Did I forget anyone else?

But we can all win this battle if we just keep fighting the media. It will all go away eventually right?

I don't see any fight.

I see the media whining, and I see the Redskins doing nothing.

~Bang

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2cents   
I don't see any fight.

I see the media whining, and I see the Redskins doing nothing.

~Bang

Par for the course, which if fine with me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.