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Avengers vs. Justice League. Who would win?


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#161 ABQCOWBOY

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 11:28 AM

Herc was a god, Beowulf was a hero but not a super one. Still I'm not speaking of myths or ancient stories. I'm talking about the modern idea of a super hero.... John Carter was first. The entire shtick on how superman got his powers... A child of another planet who's gravitation was greater giveing him super powers on this new world, came from John Carter. Superman was a knock off of Edgar Rice Burrough's, ( also wrote Tarzan) John Carter.



Exactly.. he originated as very John Cater ish.... Only John Cater was based on the Southern Civil War hear John Mosby... Calvery Officer under Jeb Stuart, natural fighter, Chief of scouts, etc... And thus wasn't a good hero for everybody in the country... Mosby after all was hated in the north, and became to be hated in the south after he endorsed Grant for President and joined the GOP.


I don't think that John Carter was the first Superhero. Not even close I suspect. You had characters such as Paul Bunyan, Pacos Bill, John Henry that were really folk tail heros and before that, Daniel Boone, Jim Bowie, Davie Crockett, hero's who were real people but became Super Hero's in legend and through dime store books. Before that you had super heros like King Arthur and his knights who also reached superhero status. I don't really know where you draw the line as modern day, per say.

#162 Predicto

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 11:34 AM

I don't think that John Carter was the first Superhero. Not even close I suspect. You had characters such as Paul Bunyan, Pacos Bill, John Henry that were really folk tail heros and before that, Daniel Boone, Jim Bowie, Davie Crockett, hero's who were real people but became Super Hero's in legend and through dime store books. Before that you had super heros like King Arthur and his knights who also reached superhero status. I don't really know where you draw the line as modern day, per say.


For clarity's sake, let's just call Superman the first "comic book superhero" and move on.

#163 JMS

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 11:39 AM

I don't think that John Carter was the first Superhero. Not even close I suspect. You had characters such as Paul Bunyan, Pacos Bill, John Henry that were really folk tail heros and before that, Daniel Boone, Jim Bowie, Davie Crockett, hero's who were real people but became Super Hero's in legend and through dime store books. Before that you had super heros like King Arthur and his knights who also reached superhero status. I don't really know where you draw the line as modern day, per say.


I draw the line where you have an invulnerable guy who can leap for miles fighting against evil doers in a classic battle of good and evil. Modern persona of super hero...

Bunyan is a folk hero, I guess you could say he had super powers but he didn't really fight injustice or evil doers. Same with John Henry. Kit Carson, Boone, and Davey Crocket were all real life hero's, but nothing super powered about any of them...

---------- Post added May-10th-2012 at 12:44 PM ----------

For clarity's sake, let's just call Superman the first "comic book superhero" and move on.



Or we can say, for reality sake that John Cater was the first superhero and move on...

Posted Image

John Carter and Dejah Thoris from the cover of the first edition of A Princess of Mars by Edgar Rice Burroughs, McClurg, 1917



This is kinda a states rights issue... First they took away Virinia as the place where the civil war started. ( first casualty due to enemy action ).... Now you guys are disrespecting the first Super hero, also from Virginia... ( fought in the army of northern virginia in the "war of northern agression").

#164 ABQCOWBOY

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 11:59 AM

For clarity's sake, let's just call Superman the first "comic book superhero" and move on.



OK but that would not be accurate. Mandrake, Flash Gordon and The Phantom all superseded Superman.

#165 JMS

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 12:07 PM

OK but that would not be accurate. Mandrake, Flash Gordon and The Phantom all superseded Superman.


Actually none did. Superman first appeared in Detective Comics in 1932 He predates all of those guys.... Buck Rogers predates superman, but buck Rogers has no super powers. Carter Preceeds them all.


Mandrake the Magician is a syndicated newspaper comic strip, created by Lee Falk (before he created The Phantom). Its publication began June 11, 1934

Flash Gordon is the hero of a science fiction adventure comic strip originally drawn by Alex Raymond. First published January 7, 1934, the strip was inspired by and created to compete with the already established Buck Rogers adventure strip.

Buck Rogers is a fictional character that first appeared in Armageddon 2419 A.D. by Philip Francis Nowlan in the August 1928 issue of the pulp magazine Amazing Stories as Anthony Rogers

Superman is a fictional comic book superhero appearing in publications by DC Comics, widely considered to be an American cultural icon.[1][2][3][4] Created by American writer Jerry Siegel and Canadian-born American artist Joe Shuster in 1932 first apperared in Detective Stories, got his own comic in 1938
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman

John Carter is a fictional character, created by Edgar Rice Burroughs, who appears in Burroughs' Barsoom novels. Although he is actually a Virginian from Earth and only a visitor to Mars, he is sometimes known as John Carter of Mars, in reference to the setting in which his major deeds are recorded. His character is enduring, having appeared in various media since his 1912 debut in a magazine serial.

Edited by JMS, 10 May 2012 - 12:10 PM.


#166 ABQCOWBOY

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 12:08 PM

I draw the line where you have an invulnerable guy who can leap for miles fighting against evil doers in a classic battle of good and evil. Modern persona of super hero...

Bunyan is a folk hero, I guess you could say he had super powers but he didn't really fight injustice or evil doers. Same with John Henry. Kit Carson, Boone, and Davey Crocket were all real life hero's, but nothing super powered about any of them...

---------- Post added May-10th-2012 at 12:44 PM ----------




Or we can say, for reality sake that John Cater was the first superhero and move on...

http://upload.wikime..._Mars_large.jpg

John Carter and Dejah Thoris from the cover of the first edition of A Princess of Mars by Edgar Rice Burroughs, McClurg, 1917



This is kinda a states rights issue... First they took away Virinia as the place where the civil war started. ( first casualty due to enemy action ).... Now you guys are disrespecting the first Super hero, also from Virginia... ( fought in the army of northern virginia in the "war of northern agression").


If that is the criteria, we can go back to ancient Hyndu depictions and see the same thing we see in modern superheros including good verses evil, superhuman powers and even space ships doing battle against one another. Super Hero's have been around much longer then John Carter.

#167 Predicto

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 12:10 PM

OK but that would not be accurate. Mandrake, Flash Gordon and The Phantom all superseded Superman.


Sure, and so did Tarzan. But none of them were "super powered" in the sense of DC and Marvel comic books. Which is what this thread is about.

Comic books blossomed into a distinct entertainment industry after 1938 when Jerome Siegal and Joseph Shuster created Superman, the initiator of the superhero genre that would remain the cornerstone of the comic book industry.


http://www.randomhis...0/033comic.html

---------- Post added May-10th-2012 at 10:12 AM ----------

Actually none did. Superman first appeared in Detective Comics in 1932 He predates all of those guys....


Acctually, Superman first appeared in 1938. It took six years to find someone who would publish the idea.

Edited by Predicto, 10 May 2012 - 12:13 PM.


#168 JMS

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 12:15 PM

If that is the criteria, we can go back to ancient Hyndu depictions and see the same thing we see in modern superheros including good verses evil, superhuman powers and even space ships doing battle against one another. Super Hero's have been around much longer then John Carter.


OK, American Super Hero's... although I highly doubt India has an invulnerable flying super strong super hero who fights injustice in his underpants.. I think that is a uniquely American genre of fiction... However, I'll take your word on that.

---------- Post added May-10th-2012 at 01:25 PM ----------

Acctually, Superman first appeared in 1938. It took six years to find someone who would publish the idea.


I must have misread wikipeda.. sorry.

#169 ABQCOWBOY

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 12:27 PM

Sure, and so did Tarzan. But none of them were "super powered" in the sense of DC and Marvel comic books. Which is what this thread is about.


Actually, and I did not know this either, Madrake the Magician or The Phantom Magician is credited as the First Comic Book Superhero according to Comic Book Historian Don Markstein. I do not know a great deal about comic books. The question of who was first kinda got me started and this is what I found, granted Wiki but it's seems credible enough.

http://en.wikipedia....ke_the_Magician

#170 skinsfan07

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 12:48 PM

Has anybody mentioned Marvel's Silver Surfer? Between him, Phoenix, and Sentry, I would say those are 3 of the most powerful superhero beings out there. fyi Surfer and Sentry can both manipulate matter and create kryptonite. Phoenix would just use mind control to make Superman her B.


Back on topic guys. This is true. Silver Surfer is vastly underrated. And I mentioned Sentry and his power in this thread earlier, but his main weakness is that his mind is all jacked up. lol However if he can control himself, yes he could take out Supes.

#171 Burgold

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 09:10 PM

Herc was a god,


Technically, half-god/half-mortal. Perhaps, Achilles would have been a better choice as he was a mortal dipped in invulnerability goo up to his ackles and thus became one of the first bulletproof warriors so to speak. Heracles was certainly a superhero of the day defying gods and meeting and beating their challenges.

---------- Post added May-10th-2012 at 10:11 PM ----------

Back on topic guys. This is true. Silver Surfer is vastly underrated. And I mentioned Sentry and his power in this thread earlier, but his main weakness is that his mind is all jacked up. lol However if he can control himself, yes he could take out Supes.


Yeah, I mentioned the Surfer several pages back. He's certainly a heavy hitter.

#172 ABQCOWBOY

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 09:42 PM

Technically, half-god/half-mortal. Perhaps, Achilles would have been a better choice as he was a mortal dipped in invulnerability goo up to his ackles and thus became one of the first bulletproof warriors so to speak. Heracles was certainly a superhero of the day defying gods and meeting and beating their challenges.

---------- Post added May-10th-2012 at 10:11 PM ----------



Yeah, I mentioned the Surfer several pages back. He's certainly a heavy hitter.


Perseus as well.

#173 Hdf561

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 09:59 PM

I am kinda leaning toward the JLA...and yes Superman is the tipping point

Ironman vs Batman is no contest Ironman destroys Batman easy I also think CAP has his way with Batman and Robin.
Thor and Hulk would be a match for Superman but in the end he takes it.

Ironman, CAP, Hawkeye, are no match for Superman.

The only way I see the Avengers winning is being able to take out Superman is through superior tactics like having Stark or Banner figure out how to get Kryptonite or make it and expose Superman to it.

I love Comic debates.

#174 SittingBull

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 06:33 AM

Batman would destroy Ironman. Ironman relies on a suit. Batman would have files/research on how the tech works and manipulate it to his advantage. There's a reason the rest of the JLA is afraid of Batman. Batman always wins!

#175 Chump Bailey

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 07:54 AM

Batman would destroy Ironman. Ironman relies on a suit. Batman would have files/research on how the tech works and manipulate it to his advantage. There's a reason the rest of the JLA is afraid of Batman. Batman always wins!


This would pose the most fascinating battle IMO. A battle of wits with two guys that have off the chart intelligence. I happen to agree Batman would prevail solely because of his cunning, which Ironman somewhat lacks IMO.

#176 Stugein

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 08:25 AM

Honestly the fight would boil down to Superman versus Thor because who ever walks away from that would clean up anyone else on the opposing roster.

#177 ArmchairRedskin

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:14 PM

Batman would destroy Ironman. Ironman relies on a suit. Batman would have files/research on how the tech works and manipulate it to his advantage. There's a reason the rest of the JLA is afraid of Batman. Batman always wins!




Again, too much credit. Iron Man could target Bats from the sky and hurl whatever weapon he pleases at him from a nice safe distance. Stark is no dummy. He'd no doubt have a plan for batman and infinitely more firepower. Bats has no shot.

#178 GibbsFactor

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:55 PM

Everyone praising Bruce Wayne seems to forget that Tony Stark is pretty smart too.

#179 JMS

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 01:05 PM

Technically, half-god/half-mortal. Perhaps, Achilles would have been a better choice as he was a mortal dipped in invulnerability goo up to his ackles and thus became one of the first bulletproof warriors so to speak. Heracles was certainly a superhero of the day defying gods and meeting and beating their challenges.[COLOR="Gold"]


Achilles mother was a God, Thetis the sea nymph goddess of water.

#180 amm0409

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 07:19 PM

http://t3.qpic.cn/mb...63a6e0058e4/460

#181 Burgold

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 07:29 PM

Achilles mother was a God, Thetis the sea nymph goddess of water.


Hey, if Thor counts... demigods definitely count :silly:

#182 Predicto

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 07:29 PM

Again, too much credit. Iron Man could target Bats from the sky and hurl whatever weapon he pleases at him from a nice safe distance. Stark is no dummy. He'd no doubt have a plan for batman and infinitely more firepower. Bats has no shot.


Batman would never be standing out in the open. He probably would be breaking into Stark Tower and kidnapping Pepper Potts for use as a hostage. :ols:

#183 KDawg

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 06:36 PM

Hulk is essentially indestructible.

How could Superman beat him? Superman is no match for Hulk.

#184 elkabong82

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 09:20 PM

Hulk is essentially indestructible.

How could Superman beat him? Superman is no match for Hulk.


Unless someone has Kryptonite Superman is basically indestructible as well. Hulk is at his strongest when his rage builds up. The strongest version of Hulk is nowhere near as intelligent as Superman. Someone in the thread earlier pointed out the DC vs. Marvel series years ago, and in that Supes beats Hulk by putting a sleeper hold on him early before Hulk can get so pissed off that he overwhelms Supes. I tend to think this is how it would go down between those two. Either that or Supes gets Hulk into space and leaves him there w/ no way to get back.

#185 skinsfan07

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 01:42 PM

That's the thing though Elka, what if by the time they fight, Hulk is already filled with rage and just pummeling through the over JL members, and Supes is next on his list?

#186 elkabong82

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 04:57 PM

That's the thing though Elka, what if by the time they fight, Hulk is already filled with rage and just pummeling through the over JL members, and Supes is next on his list?


get away until the rage dies down. Hulk can jump high, but all Supes has to do is fly up into the upper atmosphere to get away. But that what if is also lime asking what if Batman knows of these Avengers ahead of time and has an anti-gamma radiation serum he shoots Hulk with?

#187 skinsfan07

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 06:27 PM

get away until the rage dies down. Hulk can jump high, but all Supes has to do is fly up into the upper atmosphere to get away. But that what if is also lime asking what if Batman knows of these Avengers ahead of time and has an anti-gamma radiation serum he shoots Hulk with?


That would be interesting if Batman did that. But it depends on if he can get close enough to use it on him.

#188 Grinder

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 06:40 PM

Depends on who is doing the writing: If its the powered-down John Byrne version of Superman then its more even...if its whoever wrote the issue of DC Comics Presents that had Superman pushing the entire planet Earth a few feet then Hulk better keep his eyes on the ground.

#189 KDawg

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 06:52 PM

get away until the rage dies down. Hulk can jump high, but all Supes has to do is fly up into the upper atmosphere to get away. But that what if is also lime asking what if Batman knows of these Avengers ahead of time and has an anti-gamma radiation serum he shoots Hulk with?


But if Stark knew of JLAs attack, he'd surely have a kryptonite blast ready and a plan for Batman as well.

#190 elkabong82

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 08:59 PM

That would be interesting if Batman did that. But it depends on if he can get close enough to use it on him.


he doesn't have to. Flash can do it

---------- Post added May-13th-2012 at 10:01 PM ----------

But if Stark knew of JLAs attack, he'd surely have a kryptonite blast ready and a plan for Batman as well.


I personally think Batman's ability for strategy is much better than Iron Man's. Stark uses his suit's tech as strategy, Batman has gadgets but otherwise it's all him, thus his strategy naturally has to be more advanced with fighting.

#191 Stugein

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 05:34 AM

Either that or Supes gets Hulk into space and leaves him there w/ no way to get back.


That strategy worked out well for the rest of the Marvel universe. o_0

Edited by Stugein, 14 May 2012 - 05:34 AM.


#192 KDawg

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 06:29 AM

I personally think Batman's ability for strategy is much better than Iron Man's. Stark uses his suit's tech as strategy, Batman has gadgets but otherwise it's all him, thus his strategy naturally has to be more advanced with fighting.


Eh. Stark acts ****y and arrogant, but he does his homework. He'd be prepared. As would Banner. And probably Cap, too. Oh and Fury.

Edited by KDawg, 14 May 2012 - 06:29 AM.


#193 Burgold

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 06:29 AM

I personally think Batman's ability for strategy is much better than Iron Man's. Stark uses his suit's tech as strategy, Batman has gadgets but otherwise it's all him, thus his strategy naturally has to be more advanced with fighting.


Yeah, Stark, Reed Richards are far smarter than Bruce Wayne, but Wayne is a better detective and more clever strategist. Different type of intelligence. You need something invented go to Marvel. You need a chess player go to DC. Batman is Sherlock Holmes... Richards is Albert Einstein, Stark is Thomas Edison.

#194 amm0409

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:40 AM

Posted Image

#195 JMS

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 11:55 AM

Hey, if Thor counts... demigods definitely count :silly:


Thor doesn't count, nobody is saying Thor was the first super hero.

All I'm saying is the comic book serial genre of American superhero was begun by John Carter in the 1890's. Not by Buck Rogers in the late 1920's. Certainly not by Superman in the late 1930's.

#196 Burgold

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 06:37 PM

Thor doesn't count, nobody is saying Thor was the first super hero.

All I'm saying is the comic book serial genre of American superhero was begun by John Carter in the 1890's. Not by Buck Rogers in the late 1920's. Certainly not by Superman in the late 1930's.


The Norse would disagree with you! ;) And the Norse were some of the first Americans. Take Erik, the Red... he was American way before Colombus.

As for American Superhero... possibly, unless you consider some of the early folk heroes like Paul Bunyon or even Davy Crocket, Daniel Boone (who in legend form was pretty super heroic)

Edited by Burgold, 14 May 2012 - 06:51 PM.


#197 Bang

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 06:40 PM

Superman is not indestructible.
He IS vulnerable to magic.

Thor's hammer is magic. Thor can definitely hang with Superman.

~Bang

#198 Grinder

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 07:52 PM

Superman is not indestructible.
He IS vulnerable to magic.

Thor's hammer is magic. Thor can definitely hang with Superman.

~Bang


The one time they fought in comics, Superman beat him straight up.

Really not a big Superman fan but the character is just too powerful.

#199 skinsfan07

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 08:15 PM

The one time they fought in comics, Superman beat him straight up.

Really not a big Superman fan but the character is just too powerful.


Agreed but who's to say Thor doesn't dip his hammer in Kryptonite in the rematch? ;)

#200 ArmchairRedskin

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 09:11 PM

The one time they fought in comics, Superman beat him straight up.

Really not a big Superman fan but the character is just too powerful.




Weren't those battles decided by fan votes? Its not like one writer's scenario is the end all be all to it. You could write numerous scenarios for either guy to win. I mean, even that chump Batman beat Superman, right?