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#1 ACW

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 02:31 AM

Anyone see this? What if Hitler won WW2? Terrifying as ****. Luckily his generals never grasped the strategic value of the Messerschmidt.

#2 No_Pressure

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 02:34 AM

Luckily he didn't listen to Heinz Guderian, as there would be a german reich alive and well today if Hitler had half the brain his general had.

#3 ACW

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 02:42 AM

Yeah, Hitler was NO strategic expert. But man this **** is some of the scariest stuff I've seen, partially because it's entirely possible.

Edited by ACW, 25 August 2011 - 02:42 AM.


#4 IONTOP

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 03:45 AM

Yeah, Hitler was NO strategic expert. But man this **** is some of the scariest stuff I've seen, partially because it's entirely possible.


Reminds me of the show "Sliders"

#5 nonniey

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 04:13 AM

Luckily he didn't listen to Heinz Guderian, as there would be a german reich alive and well today if Hitler had half the brain his general had.


Nope I don't think so. He he had listened to Guderain or any of his more competent generals it just would have meant that current day Germany would have had some radioactive parts. Many seem to forget the Western allies were developing a bomb while Germany wasn't even close.

Edited by nonniey, 25 August 2011 - 04:14 AM.


#6 HailGreen28

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 06:57 AM

Nazi Germany was outspent by the UK, outproduced by the USSR, and then they declared war against the #1 economic powerhouse of the time, the US.

And they couldn't cross the English Channel, or take Moscow.

The Nazis had no hope of winning WWII.

#7 LD0506

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 07:29 AM

In the long run they never could have "won" the war, just the lack of longrange strategic bombers to impact Russian industry beyond the Urals was in itself a fatal flaw, but it could have been far worse. There are multiple occasions when the Germans made critical, almost willful errors in judgement, when a different decisions would have benefited them greatly. Calling off the dogs and allowing the BEF to escape at Dunkirk, burning up the paratroops on Crete instead of Malta, handcuffing the generals to keep them from driving on and capturing Moscow in the initial stages, not deploying the 262 as a fighter in large numbers earlier, not bending Franco's arm to attack Gibraltar through Spain, etc. Reading the history of the war you almost have to believe in divine intervention.

The thing is, if Germany knocks out Russia, it frees up ground troops that would completely deny an Overlord. They knock Britain and establish air superiority in the West and they can hold out a lonnnnnngggg time. The decision to fight on both fronts guaranteed a loss, it couldn't have worked out better if FDR had made the decision for them.

#8 Ellis

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 07:55 AM

I initially thought this thread was going to be about Spike Lee's butchering of historical facts in his films. :ols:

#9 HailGreen28

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 08:19 AM

In the long run they never could have "won" the war, just the lack of longrange strategic bombers to impact Russian industry beyond the Urals was in itself a fatal flaw, but it could have been far worse. There are multiple occasions when the Germans made critical, almost willful errors in judgement, when a different decisions would have benefited them greatly. Calling off the dogs and allowing the BEF to escape at Dunkirk, burning up the paratroops on Crete instead of Malta, handcuffing the generals to keep them from driving on and capturing Moscow in the initial stages, not deploying the 262 as a fighter in large numbers earlier, not bending Franco's arm to attack Gibraltar through Spain, etc. Reading the history of the war you almost have to believe in divine intervention.

The thing is, if Germany knocks out Russia, it frees up ground troops that would completely deny an Overlord. They knock Britain and establish air superiority in the West and they can hold out a lonnnnnngggg time. The decision to fight on both fronts guaranteed a loss, it couldn't have worked out better if FDR had made the decision for them.

The Panzers were at the end of their logistical chain at Dunkirk. And needed to go south right then to knock France out of the war. Attacking prepared Brit defenses in bog land means the same at Dunkirk that it did in Belgium. Heavy losses to Germany.

Nazi Germany threw a succession of Hail Marys during the war. They had to with their lack of resources and manpower. Warsaw held out nearly a month. The cream of their commando crop was captured at The Hague. France had the largest army in Europe, not counting the USSR which also dwarfed Germany. Frontal attacks on French troops in Belgium usually ended badly for Germany. The Nazis commandeered all the private autos they could from occupied territory for their own needs. They were always short on fuel, a condition that always worsened. The Nazi economy was always on the verge of bankruptcy, Swiss gold only going so far. Their main transport for any attempt at invading Britain were river barges easily swamped by Channel conditions. The Germans never replaced their tank losses in Russia 1941. They needed to knock out Crete more than Malta. Without Germany diverting troops from Moscow to the Kiev encirclement, USSR goes on the offensive sooner. The Me262 had too short a range and quickly-worn-out engines to be anything but a defensive fighter, and the Brits still firebomb German cities at night. Spain would have been bankrupted and starved by the Brits, if they had joined Hitler.

Germany didn't lose because of fantastically bad decisions. Instead, it's a miracle they got as far as they did.

Edited by HailGreen28, 25 August 2011 - 08:26 AM.


#10 SkinInsite

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 08:24 AM

If only the Axis actually combined their forces instead going off in all different directions.

Plus Germany had to carry Italy.

Worst alliance ever.

#11 Switchgear

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 08:45 AM

If only the Axis actually combined their forces instead going off in all different directions.

Plus Germany had to carry Italy.

Worst alliance ever.


The Onion put out a book, Our Dumb Century, where they wrote headlines for the 20th century. One of their WW2 articles was "Japanese ally with white supremacists in well thought out scheme".

By the way, it kinda sounds like you're pulling for them.

#12 SkinInsite

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 08:50 AM

The Onion put out a book, Our Dumb Century, where they wrote headlines for the 20th century. One of their WW2 articles was "Japanese ally with white supremacists in well thought out scheme".

By the way, it kinda sounds like you're pulling for them.


I always thought Germany and Japan were doom to fail from the start. The fact they lasted 6 years shows how incompetent and unprepared the allies were.

That and Stalin trusting Hitler when he doesn't trust anybody. That was a seriously WTF moment.

#13 Henry

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 09:23 AM

If the US hadn't cut Japan off it's oil, and the Japanese had coordinated better with Germany and had posed any threat at all to the USSR, the Soviets wouldn't have been able to pull reinforcements from the east and stop the Barbarossa before it was too late. As it was, the Japanese were too pre-occupied with the US, even before Pearl Harbor, to give the Germans any help against the Russians. If the Germans had managed to knock out the Russians (and neutralize/conquer the British) before we entered the war, they could then have funneled supplies and men to the Japanese and the war in the Pacific could have also ended much differently, if there was one at all.

I don't think the US would have ever been 'conquered' but the outcome could have been better for Germany and Japan than it was. Our Cold War could have been against a German-occupied Europe, rather than half of Europe dominated by the Soviets, and ultimately may not have worked out as well for us as it did.

Oh, and don't think the Germans wouldn't have developed the Bomb as quickly as we did if they hadn't lost the war when they did. The only reason we won that race was that we were pounding the hell out of Germany before they had the chance to implement their superior technology on us. They already had jets and long range rockets. It's just that by the time they had developed them they couldn't build enough of them to make a difference against us. Had the war lasted another year we could have been in serious trouble.

#14 Prosperity

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 10:37 AM

Even w/ better tech, there's no F'n way Hitler would have won w/ the US in the war. The industrial base of the US + the USSR was invincible. And people don't give enough credit to the ingenuity of the Russians. For example, the T-34 may not have been as fancy as the meanest German tanks, but w/ all things considered it was a far more efficient system. You may be able to have a 2:1 or even 3:1 kill ratio, but if the other guys tanks are simpler, require less training, and cost 1/3 or 1/4 the price, then you better be a hell of a lot smarter than them to have a chance.

Japan was a minor speed bump.

Now, if the US didn't join in then Henry's analysis is probably a pretty decent track of the things that would have happened.


I always thought Germany and Japan were doom to fail from the start. The fact they lasted 6 years shows how incompetent and unprepared the allies were.

That and Stalin trusting Hitler when he doesn't trust anybody. That was a seriously WTF moment.


I don't think Stalin trusted Hitler, I think they both planned on betraying each other, but Hitler was the first to pull the trigger.

Edited by Prosperity, 25 August 2011 - 10:43 AM.


#15 No_Pressure

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 12:27 PM

Nope I don't think so. He he had listened to Guderain or any of his more competent generals it just would have meant that current day Germany would have had some radioactive parts. Many seem to forget the Western allies were developing a bomb while Germany wasn't even close.


Not really, Guderian dreaded the invasion of Poland and the inevitable confrontation with the western powers Hitler was forcing Germany into. His greatest hopes during his brilliant campaign in France were that the speed and decisiveness of their victories would open Great Britain even more to talks of peace. Many of Hitler's most brilliant generals such as Rundstedt and Manstein favored this position in 1940 and like Guderian were quite terrified when informed of operation Barbarossa in early 1941.

On top of all of that, while the Germans didn't stand a chance against Russia in a prolonged war, many of the top generals such as Guderian believed that if the panzer groups were allowed to advance at full speed on specific targets such as Leningrad and Moscow rather than having the three army groups generally have objectives in sectors which would eventually span over 1,000 miles, the Germans would be able to quickly capture Russian industrial centers before new troop equipment and thousands of t-34's started flooding into production as they did in the winter of 1942.

Hitler became very concerned when the German army was encircling large pockets of Russian troops. He famously ordered panzergruppe Guderian south to capture about a half a million Russians in the Kiev pocket rather than allowing Guderian to force crossings on vital bridgeheads and advance on Moscow before the fall and before the Russians had totally strengthened their defensive positions around the city. The Russian campaign was pretty much doomed to fail from the start but it could have succeeded if Hitler wasn't a horrible strategist. If the German armed forces cut the Soviet union in half in 1941 they would have been able to squeeze off the middle east/mediterranean properly as opposed to what they had Rommel doing down there in reality. With such vital lines cut, and such important production facilities captured within the Soviet Union combined with the foreign recruitment of units to the Wehrmacht (millions of Ukranians, Byellorussians, and Baltic State volunteers could likely have been counted on) the Germans would have fielded a larger and more formidable army. Assuming that Hitler didn't listen to Hermann Goring and didn't squander the Luftwaffe over England, Germany would be in a good position to either dictate terms to the English, or strengthen their grip on Europe while providing assistance to the Japanese in places like India/Burma.

The what ifs get interesting from there. One thing that we can count on is that the Germans would have likely developed a working atomic bomb in late 1945. I have read about the possibility that they actually tested a small scale device in the spring of 1945 and were incredibly close to having a working atomic bomb in late 45. Knowing the destructive power of the atomic bomb, the Germans under proper leadership would have likely sought a truce against the U.S. but its hard to imagine what they would do with such a weapon.

#16 Corcaigh

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 12:36 PM

One thing that we can count on is that the Germans would have likely developed a working atomic bomb in late 1945. I have read about the possibility that they actually tested a small scale device in the spring of 1945 and were incredibly close to having a working atomic bomb in late 45. Knowing the destructive power of the atomic bomb, the Germans under proper leadership would have likely sought a truce against the U.S. but its hard to imagine what they would do with such a weapon.


Even overcoming the technical issues of a working design and trigger mechanism, the biggest issue was getting to an industrial scale to build multiple devices. Even producing what was used at Hiroshima and Nagasaki required massive complexes at Hanford and Oak Ridge. It's difficult to conceive how the Germans could have accomplished this given the Allied aerial bombing by day and night in '45.

This is true today for 'rogue states' - sufficient quantities of weapons grade material is the constraint, not the understanding of how to create a nasty fission explosion.

#17 No_Pressure

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 12:49 PM

Even overcoming the technical issues of a working design and trigger mechanism, the biggest issue was getting to an industrial scale to build multiple devices. Even producing what was used at Hiroshima and Nagasaki required massive complexes at Hanford and Oak Ridge. It's difficult to conceive how the Germans could have accomplished this given the Allied aerial bombing by day and night in '45.

This is true today for 'rogue states' - sufficient quantities of weapons grade material is the constraint, not the understanding of how to create a nasty fission explosion.


Yes, with the state of affairs as they were in 1945 it wasn't a threat, however if Hitler hadn't destroyed all of Germany's chances of peace with England and defeating the Soviet Union (or perhaps if he didn't suicidally attack them in the first place) along with squandering the Luftwaffe, Germany would have been in a much better position to protect their industrial centers from allied bombing, would have controlled the mediterranean and likely north africa which would have eliminated the allied bombing threat out of Italy from 1943 onward, and they likely would have been able to produce an atomic bomb around the same time we did if not a bit later depending on how much effort they devoted to the task.

#18 LD0506

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 01:04 PM

The Panzers were at the end of their logistical chain at Dunkirk. And needed to go south right then to knock France out of the war. Attacking prepared Brit defenses in bog land means the same at Dunkirk that it did in Belgium. Heavy losses to Germany.

Nazi Germany threw a succession of Hail Marys during the war. They had to with their lack of resources and manpower. Warsaw held out nearly a month. The cream of their commando crop was captured at The Hague. France had the largest army in Europe, not counting the USSR which also dwarfed Germany. Frontal attacks on French troops in Belgium usually ended badly for Germany. The Nazis commandeered all the private autos they could from occupied territory for their own needs. They were always short on fuel, a condition that always worsened. The Nazi economy was always on the verge of bankruptcy, Swiss gold only going so far. Their main transport for any attempt at invading Britain were river barges easily swamped by Channel conditions. The Germans never replaced their tank losses in Russia 1941. They needed to knock out Crete more than Malta. Without Germany diverting troops from Moscow to the Kiev encirclement, USSR goes on the offensive sooner. The Me262 had too short a range and quickly-worn-out engines to be anything but a defensive fighter, and the Brits still firebomb German cities at night. Spain would have been bankrupted and starved by the Brits, if they had joined Hitler.

Germany didn't lose because of fantastically bad decisions. Instead, it's a miracle they got as far as they did.


This was about Goering and his hubris.The BEF was disorganized and dispirited as they streamed into Dunkirk, and were abandoning the majority of their equipment. The panzers were stopped because Goering assured Hitler he could wipe them out w/ the Luftwaffe. They allowed a hard core of experienced troops to escape that were deployed elsewhere, most notably to the Med. Even the psychological blow of capturing the bulk of the BEF on the continent would have been worth an infantry assault. British public opinion was not in favor of another generation slaughtered in a continental war, and there were a lot of Pro-German members of the aristocracy, a negotiated settlement would not have been impossible if the Germans could have pushed hard enough. An actual invasion of England was not the only option.

Crete was the death of the Fallschirmjager and never yielded any strategic advantage, whereas Malta remained as a base for aircraft and subs that cut the supply lines to North Africa, dooming Rommel's efforts. An Afrikakorp well supplied and safe it its rear might have overrun Egypt early on, before the reorganization and reequipment allowed Monty to break their back. Germany in control of the ME oil fields and access out the Red and/or Arabian seas into the Indian would have seriously impacted merchant/troop shipping around the Cape. If they had to spend a chip like an elite group of paratroopers, securing the straits of Messina and denying the Med to the British Navy would have been worth it.

The Me 262 had a range of 600-650mi @ altitude, and was designed and needed as a defensive fighter. 4X30mm cannon were for dropping bombers, not dogfighting, that was it's role. It first flew as a jet in mid-'42, it was a lot of interference and Fuhrer demands that it be produced as a bomber that kept it from seeing action til late '44. 262s in squadron strength meeting bomber streams before they had longrange escorts would have been a bloodbath, and at the very least bought them time and protected their industrial base.

The entire war was huge gamble for Germany, the only way they could hope to prevail was keep up the momentum, maintain the Blitzkrieg that got them their early successes and focus their resources on critical pressure points instead of getting into a drawn out slogging match that they had no hope of winning, but they never caught a break.

#19 No_Pressure

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 01:43 PM

Crete was the death of the Fallschirmjager and never yielded any strategic advantage, whereas Malta remained as a base for aircraft and subs that cut the supply lines to North Africa, dooming Rommel's efforts. An Afrikakorp well supplied and safe it its rear might have overrun Egypt early on, before the reorganization and reequipment allowed Monty to break their back. Germany in control of the ME oil fields and access out the Red and/or Arabian seas into the Indian would have seriously impacted merchant/troop shipping around the Cape. If they had to spend a chip like an elite group of paratroopers, securing the straits of Messina and denying the Med to the British Navy would have been worth it.


In Heinz Guderian's personal memoirs he talks for a while about the period after the fall of France and prior to operation Barbarossa. He felt that Malta was more important tactically than Crete in the mediterranean, and he wanted to strengthen the German presence in North Africa far more than what ended up happening. Basically he felt that if Germany left a garrison to control Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium, and France, the German armed forces would be free to attack Britain's empire and dislodge them from key points around the world.

At any rate my original comment that if Hitler had listened to his smarter generals like Guderian there would still be a German Reich was in reference to the extreme unpopularity of the invasion of Poland with many of Germany's generals. I have read the memoirs of multiple commanders, notably Rundstedt, Guderian (who I feel was the smartest of them all) and Manstein (who Guderian felt was the smartest of them all). All of those men felt after obtaining Czechoslovakia it would have been extremely prudent of Hitler to consolidate his power. They didn't seem anxious to create massive death and destruction across an entire continent and they all knew that a war with either the western powers or the Soviets would mean the death of Germany. Guderian referred to the invasion of Poland as the start of the great disaster.

#20 Darth Tater

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 02:04 PM

The most likely outcome would have been the world split into 3 fascists camps, pretty much what happened. The USSR gets replaced by Germany and China gets replaced by Japan but US would still be the same at the most basic level.

#21 Predicto

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 02:23 PM

I love this stuff.

One "what if" possibility not previously mentioned is what if Hitler had given Rommel all the support he needed in North Africa? He was 100 miles away from Cairo for months, but Montgomery was given enough time to build up his forces in Egypt and strike back.

If Egypt falls, the Middle East is wide open. The Brits can no longer control the Mediterranean airspace, and would have to withdraw out of Malta, back to Gibraltar. Hitler gets access to all the oil he can use in Iraq, can build up all the forces he wants there, and the Brits are cut off from India. Turkey would have been surrounded by Axis, and would capitulate, and the Brits would not have been able to overthrow the pro-German Shah of Iran next door. Not only would it have been impossible for the Allies to supply Russia from that direction like we did, but Hitler could have opened up a southern front on the Soviets rather than hammering so long at the doors of Stalingrad a year later.

Or not. :)

#22 Prosperity

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 02:36 PM

Posted Image

A drug person can learn to cope with things like seeing their dead grandmother crawling up their leg with a knife in her teeth, but nobody should be asked to handle this trip. Bazooko's Circus is what the whole hep world would be doing every Saturday night if the Nazis had won the war. This was the Sixth Reich.


I like to think more about the cultural shift in the world if a pseudo Pagan-christian superpower imposed its will on humanity... I think the debauchery would have been unparalleled...

#23 HailGreen28

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Posted 25 August 2011 - 03:33 PM

This was about Goering and his hubris.The BEF was disorganized and dispirited as they streamed into Dunkirk, and were abandoning the majority of their equipment. The panzers were stopped because Goering assured Hitler he could wipe them out w/ the Luftwaffe. They allowed a hard core of experienced troops to escape that were deployed elsewhere, most notably to the Med. Even the psychological blow of capturing the bulk of the BEF on the continent would have been worth an infantry assault. British public opinion was not in favor of another generation slaughtered in a continental war, and there were a lot of Pro-German members of the aristocracy, a negotiated settlement would not have been impossible if the Germans could have pushed hard enough. An actual invasion of England was not the only option.

Yes, Goering forced that. But even afterwards, Hitler changed his mind and allowed the german army to attack. But stronger than expected opposition particularly from the brits made Hitler order the army to stop. The Nazis couldn't afford to bring more force at the same time they were barreling into a disorganized french army further south. Let alone the propaganda of a british victory at dunkirk AND more orderly evacuation. Or worse, give the french army time to reform in southern france.

Crete was the death of the Fallschirmjager and never yielded any strategic advantage, whereas Malta remained as a base for aircraft and subs that cut the supply lines to North Africa, dooming Rommel's efforts. An Afrikakorp well supplied and safe it its rear might have overrun Egypt early on, before the reorganization and reequipment allowed Monty to break their back. Germany in control of the ME oil fields and access out the Red and/or Arabian seas into the Indian would have seriously impacted merchant/troop shipping around the Cape. If they had to spend a chip like an elite group of paratroopers, securing the straits of Messina and denying the Med to the British Navy would have been worth it.

Agreed on the german paratroopers. Agreed on Malta's importance. Just saying crete was also necessary, to secure German's southern flank.

The germans had no chance of taking alexandria. British air and naval power guaranteed Rommel wouldn't have gotten the supplies he needed to the front, by road or sea.

The Me 262 had a range of 600-650mi @ altitude, and was designed and needed as a defensive fighter. 4X30mm cannon were for dropping bombers, not dogfighting, that was it's role. It first flew as a jet in mid-'42, it was a lot of interference and Fuhrer demands that it be produced as a bomber that kept it from seeing action til late '44. 262s in squadron strength meeting bomber streams before they had longrange escorts would have been a bloodbath, and at the very least bought them time and protected their industrial base.

Yes, the me262 was no more able to carry the fight to the enemy across the channel, than the spitfire or me109. The delay in me262 production did allow more time spent on engine longevity, which was still crap. They might have shut down the US daylight bombing campaign against germany, the result of which would have been shorter escorted raids into occupied france, and more night bombings. The me262 still wouldn't have won the war that way.

The entire war was huge gamble for Germany, the only way they could hope to prevail was keep up the momentum, maintain the Blitzkrieg that got them their early successes and focus their resources on critical pressure points instead of getting into a drawn out slogging match that they had no hope of winning, but they never caught a break.

Yeah. The nazis gambled first that the allies wouldn't go to war over re-militarizing the ruhr. Then gambled that the allies wouldn't go to war over austria, then czechslovakia. Even after the gamble against poland failed and france and the uk declared war, the nazis gamble that france wouldn't attack in force while germany took poland, was successful. The battle for france was the next gamble, with the nazi drive throught the ardennes, with guderian and rommel disobeying orders to stop, that the nazis lucked out on. The false bluff of operation sea lion, and utter failure of the u-boats to sink near the amount of tonnage needed to force britain to negotiate, was another failed "hail mary". Operation Barbarossa's failure by december 1941 pretty much was game over for the nazis. The outcome was no longer in doubt, in hindsight. Hitler simply rolled the dice too many times.

Edited by HailGreen28, 25 August 2011 - 03:37 PM.