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Opinions, Please


Mark The Homer

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Let's say I had a pair of tickets to the Cowboys game in the LL sidelines. And let's say I wanted to list them here for $300 for the pair. Good deal, right? I think there are a lot of fans on this board who would love to pay $300 for a pair of tickets for this game.

But this is impossible. The seller is unable to list his tickets for $300 because of all the **** he is afraid he'd have to take from the membership. And yet, at the same time, the membership would love to pay the $300 for the tickets.

For this particular game, it appears we are shooting ourselves in the foot with our own guidelines. And I can see this sort of situation repeating.

There have been a fair amount of ads recently with prices sort of going over the established guidelines here, and there have been a lot of negative comments within those ads. And I can see things only getting worse as the team returns to its winning ways, and the tickets themselves become an asset rather than a liability. And this got me thinking about the future.

Let's say we have a game like this Dallas game, but it's next year or some other year in the future. And aftermarket prices go through the roof. Let's say they are typically selling on sites such as Stubhub and eBay for double face.

And let's say a Redskins season ticket holder and ES member has a pair of Redskins tickets which he has because he is a season ticket holder and he can't make the game.

What should he do?

He knows he can sell the tickets on eBay and make a few bucks. eBay would charge him a fee, and he'd have a paypal fee too. But he'd still make a few bucks.

Or, he can sell them on this site, and following the guidelines, he'd make nothing.

What should he do?

Let's look a little deeper.

A pair of tickets in the LL are face value $109.80 each. But let's pretend for the ease of argument they are $100 face value each.

And let's pretend they will fetch $200 each on eBay.

And let's pretend the seller fees are 10% in eBay and paypal combined.

So he can list them on eBay. sell them for $400, pay the 10% ebay and paypal fees, and he'd end up with $360.

On the other hand, he could sell them on our site, mark them up 20%, and end up with $240 (effectively breaking even).

Obviously, the seller is better off selling them on eBay. He'd be $120 better off.

But if he does that, the team and the fans are worse off because an opposing fan may be sitting in a seat in our stadium.

The other point is, a fellow Redskins fan, who may have been happy paying $360 for the tickets, doesn't get to go to the game because the opposing fan found the tickets on eBay and was willing to pay $400.

But the irony is, $360 is all the seller got anyway.

You see...?

Why shouldn't the Redskins season ticket holder be permitted the opportunity to test the waters at below market on this site (which may be above the 20% markup), with the goal of selling to a Redskins fan?

Imagine this:

The Redskins fan and ES member, rather than sell at a maximum 20% markup, would instead be advised to sell in one of two ways:

1) A clear bargain below-market price. It may be above the 20% face, but it would still be a good deal for a buyer because the price would be cheaper than what would have to be paid elsewhere.

2) Silent auction, where the bids are PM'ed to the seller and are not broadcast to others.

What do you think? Either one of these options eliminates the middleman fee that would otherwise go to eBay or Stubhub, and would also allow more tickets to be available to Redskins fans and ES members at a bargain price. And I don't think selling below market can be consider "price-gouging." It seems to me this would give us, the membership, an opportunity to find better deals than we would otherwise find.

Opinions, please...

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I definitely understand the dilemma Mark brings up. I'm a season ticket holder and usually take my young sons to the game, but with the flex, the game will start a little too late for them, so I have 2 tickets to sale. There is NO WAY I will sit next to a Cowboys fan, but at the same time, in this economy, if I can recover some of what I put out for 4 season tickets due to the demand, but want to make sure to give a fellow Skins fan the opportunity, there's a conflict. I told my brother I'm posting on ES to give a Skins fan the opportunity, then he tells me a coworker of his paid like 6x face value for tickets farther up...

When I wasnt a season ticket holder, I would pick one game a year and I'd be willing to probably go up to 4-5x face to get to a game, especially the Dallas game. But I don't see the harm if you have ES members willing to make offers above the face + 20% limit. I will say I like the silent auction route, at least that way you don't really have to put numbers out there.

BOTTOM LINE: we need to keep FedEx Burgundy and Gold by any means!

HTTR!

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I think anything over 2.5 to 3 times face is rediculous. i understand wanting to make some money but selling this one game alone for 2 and ahalf times face would get another skins fan in and basically cover anything you lost for the preseason tickets. Yes you can get more but there is a difference between wanting to pick up an extra buck and raping a fellow skins fan

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I agree with Mark pretty much. I would love to see more tickets offered on here for the big games for discounts even if they aren't for face value.

I think if the seller can show proof of at least 3 sales on Ebay or stubhub for a price, and then give us a discounted price on that....something like that could work.

For example: I have a pair for sale in section 126 row 15. Past sales on stubhub and Ebay in that area have been going for $420 on average. I'm going to offer mine here for $350 to make sure they go to a skins fan. This is just an example, I don't acutally have any tickets for sale;)

Just as long as they are realistic and don't say, "Well there is one pair currently listed on stubhub in row 1 in section 126 for $1300 so I am going to give you a discount and sell you these for only $900". I would hope people would call him out if they were trying to get an unrealistic price.

Then we get into people hijacking threads and saying prices are too high. I personally don't see an issue with this. If someone posts tickets on here for one price, and you know they are way cheaper somewhere else, shouldn't you let potential buyers know, and let the seller know he has over priced his? He may not be aware that they were overpriced.

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The market is the market, period. If someone can sell for 2x or 3x because people will pay for it, I have no problem with that. (Admittedly, I'm also a season ticket holder who sometimes cannot make games). That being said, I've never sold tickets here (or can't remember having done it), just parking passes, which I've always done at cost.

People should list what they think tickets are worth. If people are offended, those people should keep quiet, because otherwise they are thread-jacking. Yeah, I know, it's the Internet, and everyone can and does love to be heard, but sometimes silence is golden.

Maybe we could have sales threads where only the seller can post, and all responses have to be PMs. :)

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I think anything over 2.5 to 3 times face is rediculous. i understand wanting to make some money but selling this one game alone for 2 and ahalf times face would get another skins fan in and basically cover anything you lost for the preseason tickets. Yes you can get more but there is a difference between wanting to pick up an extra buck and raping a fellow skins fan

If 2.5 to 3 times face is what the market will bear, then it's not ridiculous. The alleged "rape" that you mention works both ways.

As a season ticket-holder, I take a $425.00 per year loss on those meaningless pre-season games that I'm forced to buy. I do not attend pre-season games and, on the rare occasion that we can't make a regular season game, I sell them at cost.

It sucks, but I understand that's the price that I pay to keep my tickets. I've also had Skins fans low-ball me for tickets.

What's ridicoulous, is when Skins fans look for a bargain on the backs of the fellow Skins fans,( who pay for season tickets over the years at a loss), and then cry foul when the season-ticket holders have the rare chance to recoup some of the money that they've lost over the years.

If I charged 10 X face for this game, it still wouldn't come close to the money I've lost over the years paying for those meaningless pre-season games. It's highly unlikely that any season-ticket holders are "making a buck" If anything, they are recouping a small portion of their losses.

That being said, you can't rape the willing. If a Skins fans is willing to pay what the market will bear, then it's all good.

To keep it OT, I think both options are viable.

I also think that the only people who should post in the threads, should be the potential buyer(s) and seller(s) and everyone else should nose the **** out. If the transaction(s) appear to be serious transgressions, report the post and let the mods do their jobs.

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The market is the market, period.
Yeah, but the market is not quite the market when tix are sold on sites such as Stubhub. The seller pays a whopping 15%, the buyer pays a whopping 10%, and somewhere in between, there's a Redskins Fan who is priced out and sitting at home while a Dallas fan is sitting behind me whooping it up.

Why can't we meet somewhere in the middle? Put a Redskins fan in that seat, make the seller and buyer happy here on ES, and the Cowboys fan can stay on Stubhub looking.

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I understand both sides of the argument but I will say that I think that if people want to have an auction, people should post what they are willing to pay so others can see. This way people know what they're going for.

I haven't had season tickets for the redskins but I had capitals season tickets for 3 years until they raised the prices past what I wanted to pay. (where i was was 1,700+ a seat) I understand the feeling of season ticket holders especially since I would have 41 home games (i went to 97% of games) some which I couldn't get jack for if I didnt want to or was unable to go. When you have a chance to make money on some games, some people will cry foul at price gouging when in another sense, you've already paid 1,000s for the right to have the tickets in the first place. The money made off the ticket is still way less than your overall spending.

With that said, maybe it's irrelevant but I generally like to not try and gouge fellow fans. Whatever the market will bear, the market will bear.. but I think I'm going to have to agree with the one poster that said 2.5-3x face value ought to be close to enough. I think it's a reasonable middle ground where you get to make a good profit while still allowing other fans the ability to buy tickets and recoup some of your losses. Yes, people might be selling for 6x the price, and its really hard to say an exact thing of what is 'enough' because its all relative.

To me it gets to the point of, do you have the tickets as an investment to sell and make money, or do you have the tickets to go to the games and want to have other die hard fans have a chance to go to the games. I do think its sorta sad if hardcore fans get priced out. It's not a charity and season ticket holders don't owe anyone anything, they pay for the right to have tickets. But I think when things get to these astronomical prices its a bit much. Like what mark said, people get to post here and they get free advertising and no fees. I don't want to hear what things are going for on stubhub because on stubhub when all is said and done there is 25% taken out of that between the extra price for the buyer and the cut taken from the seller. I expect to at least get a discount from market price. Also ditto on someone saying that people should also post what things are actually SELLING for on stubhub, rather than the crazy prices that people post.

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Yeah, but the market is not quite the market when tix are sold on sites such as Stubhub. The seller pays a whopping 15%, the buyer pays a whopping 10%, and somewhere in between, there's a Redskins Fan who is priced out and sitting at home while a Dallas fan is sitting behind me whooping it up.

Why can't we meet somewhere in the middle? Put a Redskins fan in that seat, make the seller and buyer happy here on ES, and the Cowboys fan can stay on Stubhub looking.

Agreed........

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Why can't we meet somewhere in the middle? Put a Redskins fan in that seat, make the seller and buyer happy here on ES, and the Cowboys fan can stay on Stubhub looking.

It's still the market, it's just Stubhub's version of the market.

But, I agree with you. If you're listing for $300 on Stubhub, list for $260 here, and buyer and seller win, imho. And by marketing here, we keep it in the Redskin family.

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I dont think we should cap the mark up. If we do we then we should have a basement cap too for games that arent popular.

I think we should let members post whatever price they want and keep all negotiations through PM. Stubhub charges fees to both buyers and sellers but TM only charges 10% to the seller, Craigslist charges nothing. I had a thread locked for asking 4x face bc a few members complained about the price. That didn't stop other ES members who were willing to pay a premium to message me and in the end the tickets got sold.

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I agree 100% with Mark. This is going to be a bigger problem for more games next year as our success continues. I've had tickets in the past that I could have easily sold on here, but at the risk of pissing people off and dealing with people who monitor every single ad, I went the route with less headaches and sold elsewhere, not really knowing who bought the tickets. Honestly, all I ever tend to find on here (Dallas game excluded) is people who want to buy for less than face value because they are "hardcore Skins fans." It would be nice to be able to offer them here first at "market value" as compared to rolling the dice with ebay, etc. The same people who offered me $70 for 50 yard line lower level tickets to the Falcons game would get mad if I asked $170 for the Ravens game, for example. The market is the market, and that's what we should go by. That's my humble opinion.

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I agree with the market is the market. If people want to list for over 20% mark up, they should be able to cite recent SALES (last 7-10 days) of comparable sales on stubhub, ticket NFL ticket exchange, etc. to justify their price (which should be 10% below the comparable sales price). Not sure how this would work though, but I think that would be fair.

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I agree w/ Mark's idea for big games like this one. But I also understand the need for guidelines in this forum, bc w/ out the rules this place would become Craigslist 2.0. Craigslist is great for ticket shopping the week of the game, but the rest of the year it's cluttered w/ ridiculous postings where people are asking two and three times market rates. The posters list their ads knowing they're unlikely to get any bites. However, bc Craigs is a free site people clutter it w/ BS; brokers and private sellers. The same thing would happen here.

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I think doing the silent auction thing would be a decent idea...something about someone trying to sell 2 tickets for $1200 or whatever it was the other day is a little crazy.

I always look here first for tickets b/c usually we can get them close to FV. I understand people want to make money off of these tickets. But as Huly has been stating in the other threads the guidlines say 20%, maybe we move that to 50%? So sellers would be able to make 1.5x FV...idk. I think if we start allowing people to sell tickets here at whatever price they would like, we will see a lot of new memberships per month for big games selling tickets. What would stop someone like a tickets broker....creating say 4-5 accounts and selling tickets on here? I know i would do that if it were my company.

It's JMO. But i think we should have some sort of max limit on tickets prices..maybe list them at 1.5 FV and allow people to bid on them or whatever. Maybe that 1.2x or 1.5x will be starting bid.

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Okay let's make this clear.

The idea is that sellers would sell on this site at below market. And that price would be based on what buyers are paying, not what sellers are asking.

There is nothing crazy about below market. Below market is a bargain. Below market is a good deal. Below market is what everybody wants.

Here is an example of what would be unreasonable:

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?376357-FS-2-tix-Redskins-vs-Cowboy-sec-212-row-3-900

The seller used $900 because he saw them listed that way on Stubhub. But the truth is, people weren't paying $900, they were paying $400. So this is a bad ad.

OTOH, if the ad was for $400, it would be a good ad. It's well beyond what face is, but it's still a bargain relative to what people are paying on the open market.

As it's set up now, these tickets would not be offered here for $400. Instead they'd potentially go to a Cowboys fan on some other site for $400. And the irony is, the buyer would pay more than $400, and the seller would collect less than $400. Whereas if the tix were sold here for $400, both parties are better off. And best of all, the seat is filled with a Redskins fan.

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10-15% below market value on ebay-stubhub.

A caveat being thats only for a scenario like this. It shouldnt be the standard.

If the "market" bears that tickets are going for 30 dollars on stubhub, a member shouldnt be forced to sell it on here for $25.

In actuality, the only way this actually works is if the buyers agree to still pay face value when the tickets aren't worth it. And that will never happen. The "market" always favors somebody, the fact that it's finally turned in the sellers favor has all the buyers flipping out.

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My opinion: if you want to play ExtremeSkinsGod, then go right ahead. With a stadium of 90,000+ seats, if you don't want people selling their tickets here for what they want for them... they'll just go somewhere else and make what they want. You can put all the little rules you want and troll all you want, means nothing in the greater scheme.

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