PJM/ On Liberty and Abortion

I’ve come to see that every single argument in favor of unlimited abortion simply skips over the decisive question: is an unborn child a human being or not? You can’t say killing a human being is a private matter. You can’t say a woman has “a right to choose” whether to kill a human being. You can’t say it’s okay to kill a human being because he was the product of rape or incest. You can’t argue that protecting the life of a human being unfairly extends government power — the government already has, and must have, that power. And you surely can’t say we must kill masses of innocent humans for the greater good of society. That’s more than hitlerian. It’s satanic.

You can see pro-choicers stumble over this problem of logic when feminists, say, complain that people are aborting far more girls than boys or when gays worry that the discovery of a “gay gene” may lead to a “gay holocaust” by abortion. It ain’t a holocaust if you’re not killing people. And if unborn children aren’t human, why shouldn’t parents kill them off until they get the one they want?

I still believe it’s possible for a person of good will to make the argument that a fetus is not fully human for some small period of its development. Thomas Aquinas did — and the man was a saint. But more and more, that point of view is coming to seem to me pre-scientific. In any case, if that’s the argument pro-choicers want to have, let’s have that argument, and no other — because no other matters. And if we as a free people decide that unborn children are children indeed, there is no moral alternative: we must not only end abortion but put our full efforts into supporting humane and broadly available methods of welcoming the unwanted.

http://pajamasmedia.com/andrewklavan/2011/07/11/on-liberty-and-abortion/?singlepage=true

sorry,need a distraction from politics

Don't people who kill pregnant women typically get charged with two counts of murder?

Don't people who kill pregnant women typically get charged with two counts of murder?

I'm pretty sure Scott Peterson was. Maybe the law has some grey area that, if the woman wants to keep the child it's 2 counts but if she was going to get an abortion it's only 1? I have no idea, I'd have to leave that to legal experts like Predicto, especially in CA.

Humans put other humans to death all the time who are unwanted, people kill others who they think are trying to steal from them, those they think are wanting to kill them

If you say it is ok to kill others whom you exercise authority over such as the government with the death penalty and war then do not those who create also have that authority over that which they create.

One can not on one hand extol the vitures of greed and selfishness when it comes to things like lowering taxes and the right to carry weapons and then complain about those consequences from such a prevailing attitude when it comes to the unborn.

If you believe it is wrong to kill over money, out of self interest then yes abortion is wrong

If you believe it is not you place to kill others period then abortion is wrong

If you think killing other to protect wealth and self are okay then abortion becames a moot point since you have already marginalized life

wait, wanting to preserve the right to carry a gun is greedy and selfish?

wait, wanting to preserve the right to carry a gun is greedy and selfish?

Why does a person wish to carry a gun

Agreed with the OP, but ultimately, we have to understand that a woman has to carry this human being to at least some viable term, and during the time she is carrying this other human life her life and the baby's life are intertwined. Typically, we say that a person's freedom extends to the point in which it infringes on the freedom of another. In this case, that view can be a Catch 22. If a woman doesn't want to be pregnant, than can government really tell her she has to? Where does the line get drawn in term of complications that endanger a mother's life? Who makes the call as to whether or not the human life inside her can be killed?

I believe that any human life,at whatever stage of development, no matter how conceived, deserves the chance to live. I remember the first time my wife and I saw a sonogram of our little "lump of cells", and I knew at that point I was a father. I believe every abortion kills a human life, and any argument to contrary is just made to make someone feel better about such an act. I believe you used to have a sig regarding this definition of life, twa, didn't you?

In any case, although I see the definition of a human as black and white, I do not think the subject of abortion is so. Somehow the same father or mother can feel nothing about their baby and want to end one pregnancy, and feel completely in love with their baby during the next. Deep down, I believe there is always an awareness to those that have abortions of what it is they are doing and what it is they are giving up, but there in their mind the good outweighs the bad at that point.

Perhaps we could focus on ways to make it easier to give up a pregnancy and adopt. Maybe medicine/science will evolve to the point where we can take an unborn baby (no matter how young) from a mother who doesn't want it and give it to someone that does. The barriers to adoption are way too high, when you consider some of the horrible homes babies are born into everyday.

---------- Post added July-14th-2011 at 10:12 PM ----------

If you believe it is wrong to kill over money, out of self interest then yes abortion is wrong

If you believe it is not you place to kill others period then abortion is wrong

If you think killing other to protect wealth and self are okay then abortion becames a moot point since you have already marginalized life

Wait a minute....Based on this, Democrats should be pro-life and Republicans should be pro-abortion. No wonder this issue has been causing so many problems...

Why does a person wish to carry a gun

Well I wish to carry a gun to NOT marginalize my own life or my families life and security.

Some of the bad guys carry them for other purposes.

Legally wishing to carry a firearm in no way marginalizes life. You are assuming those that carry want to shoot someone.

I'm pretty sure Scott Peterson was. Maybe the law has some grey area that, if the woman wants to keep the child it's 2 counts but if she was going to get an abortion it's only 1? I have no idea, I'd have to leave that to legal experts like Predicto, especially in CA.

Yeah, he was: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45520-2004Nov12.html - I don't think the law is consistent in that regard.

I believe that an unborn child is a human, and I don't think that will ever change (no matter what angle I view it). An abortion = murder in my mind. It's the ending of a life....

Don't people who kill pregnant women typically get charged with two counts of murder?

Does the Census count pregnant women as two people?

Well I wish to carry a gun to NOT marginalize my own life or my families life and security.

Some of the bad guys carry them for other purposes.

Legally wishing to carry a firearm in no way marginalizes life. You are assuming those that carry want to shoot someone.

So you carry a gun with the judtification of protecting wealth and self and family

Some have the same reasoning when it comes to abortion

Does the Census count pregnant women as two people?

Nope...more inconsistency

So you carry a gun with the judtification of protecting wealth and self and family

Some have the same reasoning when it comes to abortion

I understand people having different points of view on this, but are you really comparing carrying a gun to having an abortion?

Some have the same reasoning when it comes to abortion

Not sure of that reasoning you speak. Maybe I don't understand your thought.

Nope...more inconsistency

I understand people having different points of view on this, but are you really comparing carrying a gun to having an abortion?

Tell me what is the difference between the mindset that walks around with a weapon that can take life which you will use if you deem a threat to wealth and self and the mind set that says if I get pregnant i will end that which may result as it may kill me or because i have am not wanting to give my time or money to another

sorry,need a distraction from politics

So you start a thread about abortion? Um...

Really?

Really

it should be beyond politics,I feel it is a matter of basic humanity.

and we humans are winning

Tell me what is the difference between the mindset that walks around with a weapon that can take life which you will use if you deem a threat to wealth and self and the mind set that says if I get pregnant i will end that which may result as it may kill me or because i have am not wanting to give my time or money to another

I would hate to live in your world.

Tell me what is the difference between the mindset that walks around with a weapon that can take life which you will use if you deem a threat to wealth and self and the mind set that says if I get pregnant i will end that which may result as it may kill me or because i have am not wanting to give my time or money to another

There really is no comparison.

I can't discuss personal protection - vs - abortion.

Not sure how aborting a baby is the same as protecting your person/family from harm.

Really

it should be beyond politics,I feel it is a matter of basic humanity.

and we humans are winning

Fair enough. Personally, I think if an embryo can't live without some sort of life support outside of the womb, it isn't a human.

It's not something I concern myself with too much though. I know how my wife and I would act in any give situation regarding an unborn child and that's all I'm really worried about. I just don't see how this thread won't break down into a pro/anti abortion thread though. Which only leads back to politics of course. Politics has much greater things to concern itself with than the stance regarding an unborn child.

If a adult human needs life support it is also no longer human then? (I actually believe that to a degree,or at least tell myself that to justify what I've done)

Not much in life is more important than life.....one of the few reasons we allow taking it is self preservation of our own.

Not picking on you with this though

If a adult human needs life support it is also no longer human then? (I actually believe that to a degree,or at least tell myself that to justify what I've done)

Not much in life is more important than life.....one of the few reasons we allow taking it is self preservation of our own.

Not picking on you with this though

Its an interesting question. I'd say if they are on life support and they aren't cognitive, then I'd say not (Terry Schaivo, for example).

If a adult human needs life support it is also no longer human then? (I actually believe that to a degree,or at least tell myself that to justify what I've done)

Not much in life is more important than life.....one of the few reasons we allow taking it is self preservation of our own.

Not picking on you with this though

I think what DRSmith was referring to is we can easily drop a bomb and take a human life, or kill a criminal. Without regard. The human life you take with a bomb or a protective handgun is still a human life.

But when it comes to a baby....

Its an interesting question. I'd say if they are on life support and they aren't cognitive, then I'd say not (Terry Schaivo, for example).

I would think the medical prognosis would matter(and does for adults)in such cases

of course then you get into chance of recovery,and what that state of recovery would be.

It's a interesting contrast that while you can with hold medical care to a degree,there can be not medical intervention to end the life(even in cases judged beyond recovery) of those in the last stages

if we extended those same standards to unborn children well over 90% after the first few weeks have a excellent prognosis

---------- Post added July-15th-2011 at 12:17 AM ----------

I think what DRSmith was referring to is we can easily drop a bomb and take a human life, or kill a criminal. Without regard. The human life you take with a bomb or a protective handgun is still a human life.

But when it comes to a baby....

I wouldn't call it easy...do it wrong and you will be in prison...or lose your own life

There are rather strict rules on the ending of innocent life....a example would be the result of killing your neighbor when shooting at a burglar...not justifiable

i think we are human the very moment that sperm meets egg. it's not like we evolve in the womb from another species. when the egg and sperm meet and we each get our first cell, we already have our entire genetic code that the rest of our bodies use for our entire existence.

that just gets multiplied trillions of times over. just b/c we are smaller, look like ugly aliens, and live inside a woman for those nine months shouldn't mean that we are a different creature.

no offense to anyone, but when people make the argument that the fetus is not human, it's almost like they don't want the fetus to be human so they can feel better about abortion so they just rationalize.

I wouldn't call it easy...do it wrong and you will be in prison...or lose your own life

There are rather strict rules on the ending of innocent life....a example would be the result of killing your neighbor when shooting at a burglar...not justifiable

Well I think I agree with your political ideals...

That said, if you are anti abortion, but don't have an issue with the military killing innocent civilians then there is some conflict in your opinion on the life of the innocent.